Help diagnosing distortion problem in LP playback, please.

[MattHooper]

I haven’t read the whole thread, just the OP and a few subsequent posts. Sorry about that.

Just a suggestion. . . Is the cartridge on straight? If it’s crooked, you’ll get that, increasing audible problems as the cartridge works its way toward the inner grooves of the LP. In fact, you’ll get that anyway, it’s just more pronounced if your cartridge is crooked.

Also, you probably know this, but you want to check your anti-skating setting and your tracking force. Those can cause problems that get progressively worse as you make it toward the inside grooves.

Also you want to make sure the cartridge is wired in correctly. Probably so, but if not, if you have a way of summing to mono, it will get a lot quieter when you sum to mono. Then you’ll know some wires are not connected up right in a way that really degrades the sound.

Also, though it’s probably sacrilege to say so, you can get a pretty neutral cartridge for pretty cheap if you need to rule out the cartridge as a cause. It’s not magic and it doesn’t require any high-end voodoo stuff. As people say, it’s not rocket science to change the cartridge. Fidgety and frustrating and unpleasant, yes, absolutely, if you have anger management problems maybe don’t do it, if you are not sober, don’t do it, but truth is it’s not that difficult and it’s kind of interesting.

IMHO & etc.

Thanks.

As mentioned within the thread, I'd wondered that. However the distortion was much more random: sometimes playing the first track of an album clean, then that same track distorted the next time. Same with any track, middle or end of a side. I think something is screwy within the cartridge.

 

[StevenEleven]

Thanks.

As mentioned within the thread, I'd wondered that. However the distortion was much more random: sometimes playing the first track of an album clean, then that same track distorted the next time. Same with any track, middle or end of a side. I think something is screwy within the cartridge.

Fair enough!!

I digitized my entire LP collection before the advent of streaming services. It‘s not so hard to perform some digital manipulation to improve channel balance, get rid of clicks and pops, get rid of subsonic noise, etc. Kind of interesting. I got the flu one year and locked myself away from my wife and young children and digitized many of my LPs at that time. Got to compare them to some CDs A/B-wise. I had an affection for the LP sound, but comparing the LPs and CDs in an A/B fashion was a real eye-opener.

My kids were pretty fascinated by LPs. There is something just tangible enough about the way it works, it‘s pretty remarkable how most folks made do before digital.

Over the last several years I’ve transitioned entirely over to streaming services as they have reached perfect SQ and awesome selection and convenience, though I have all of my LPs and CDs ripped and uploaded too.

I think you’re right about the tinkering impulse. For example, what is all of this seeking out 24/96 and higher streaming about? It’s about tinkering, and “more perfect,” and the challenge of making it seamless in a home hi-fi configuration, and not SQ, IMHO.

FWIW, & etc.

 

[MattHooper]

Fair enough!!

I digitized my entire LP collection before the advent of streaming services. It‘s not so hard to perform some digital manipulation to improve channel balance, get rid of clicks and pops, get rid of subsonic noise, etc. Kind of interesting. I got the flu one year and locked myself away from my wife and young children and digitized many of my LPs at that time. Got to compare them to some CDs A/B-wise. I had an affection for the LP sound, but comparing the LPs and CDs in an A/B fashion was a real eye-opener.

My kids were pretty fascinated by LPs. There is something just tangible enough about the way it works, it‘s pretty remarkable how most folks made do before digital.

Over the last several years I’ve transitioned entirely over to streaming services as they have reached perfect SQ and awesome selection and convenience, though I have all of my LPs and CDs ripped and uploaded too.

I think you’re right about the tinkering impulse. For example, what is all of this seeking out 24/96 and higher streaming about? It’s about tinkering, and “more perfect,” and the challenge of making it seamless in a home hi-fi configuration, and not SQ, IMHO.

FWIW, & etc.

Great comment!

Yeah I certainly don't need to be convinced about the technical superiority of CD. I've directly compared vinyl and CD/digital that came from the same original digital masters (though of course once you start mastering it for vinyl pressing, there's going to be some level of alteration). I can hear the technical superiority of the CD in some aspects, though I still often enough prefer the LP version because I seem to like some of those different characteristics.

As for digitizing LPs I totally get that in a practical sense for the reasons you give. For me, and this is purely psychological, I don't want to do that.
I just like the idea of keeping my analog system "all analog" just conceptually. But also because digitizing my LPs to listen that way obviates much of what I like about the physical aspects of record collecting/listening. I'd sooner just get the cleaner digital version once I've decided to listen to a digital source.

 

[watchnerd]

A Martin DRS2 is even better:

View attachment 105211

I like my American Ultra Jazzmaster

 

[watchnerd]

It‘s not so hard to perform some digital manipulation to improve channel balance, get rid of clicks and pops, get rid of subsonic noise, etc.

The Puffin can do these things real-time on playback, no need to rip.

 

[StevenEleven]

I like my Yamaha U3 and my Guild steel string and my Yamaha nylon string and my Yamaha YPG-625 and my Yamaha SA-2000 and my Ibanez bass.

Edit: Holy @#$&, I had no idea what a Yamaha SA-2000 goes for these days. I got mine new as a kid, when it was nothing to write home about.

 

[watchnerd]

my Ibanez bass.

The sad part is that, as a bass player, I'm incredibly crappy on the above Jazzmaster guitar. I keep it for those rare times when I have to fill in on rhythm guitar.

Jazz Bass V is my workhorse electric bass, when I'm not playing double bass.

 

[Sal1950]

I am seriously envious of you gents that learned to play these instruments at a young age and have attained a decent level of proficiency at playing them. I can only imagine satisfaction you get from being able to make music with the personal emotion you have for a piece.
Enjoy

 

[MattHooper]

I am seriously envious of you gents that learned to play these instruments at a young age and have attained a decent level of proficiency at playing them. I can only imagine satisfaction you get from being able to make music with the personal emotion you have for a piece.
Enjoy

Nice sentiment, Sal!

On that subject: I doubt I'm up to the level of proficiency of the fellows above.

But I was fortunate to grow up as the son of a jazz musician turned music teacher. And he was a widely loved and admired music teacher, like our own "Mr holland's opus." His stage and concert bands constantly won the biggest competitions, and to this day I hear from students who talk of my dad's tutelage as life changing. But that's to get to the point that my family grew up submersed in music: four different pianos in the home, saxes, trombones, trumpets, clarinets, drums, keyboards, guitars electric/acoustic, and on and on. So we all learned to play several instruments, and my home was often filled with the sound of my dad working out charts on the piano, practicing trumpet or sax or trombone etc, until the "kids" took over making the most musical noise in the house in our teens.

So I've always valued the sound of live instruments, as well as playing instruments. (Played sax, drums, bass, guitar, keyboards).

But it hasn't been the same for my own kids somehow. We gave them early piano lessons, but they had no enthusiasm. Music programs had been defunded in most public schools sadly, but we found a school with a music program and each played in the concert band for a while. But once in high school they didn't continue and never cared to pick up an instrument again. Kids are their own people I guess. Not going to force them. Maybe someday one of them will pick up the acoustic guitar I place in prominent view in the house

 

[StevenEleven]

Nice sentiment, Sal!

On that subject: I doubt I'm up to the level of proficiency of the fellows above.

But I was fortunate to grow up as the son of a jazz musician turned music teacher. And he was a widely loved and admired music teacher, like our own "Mr holland's opus." His stage and concert bands constantly won the biggest competitions, and to this day I hear from students who talk of my dad's tutelage as life changing. But that's to get to the point that my family grew up submersed in music: four different pianos in the home, saxes, trombones, trumpets, clarinets, drums, keyboards, guitars electric/acoustic, and on and on. So we all learned to play several instruments, and my home was often filled with the sound of my dad working out charts on the piano, practicing trumpet or sax or trombone etc, until the "kids" took over making the most musical noise in the house in our teens.

So I've always valued the sound of live instruments, as well as playing instruments. (Played sax, drums, bass, guitar, keyboards).

But it hasn't been the same for my own kids somehow. We gave them early piano lessons, but they had no enthusiasm. Music programs had been defunded in most public schools sadly, but we found a school with a music program and each played in the concert band for a while. But once in high school they didn't continue and never cared to pick up an instrument again. Kids are their own people I guess. Not going to force them. Maybe someday one of them will pick up the acoustic guitar I place in prominent view in the house

Well since you are the OP I will respect your decision to continue driving this thread waayyy off topic.

I’ve tried to fool my kids into liking to play music.

One of my kids played cello, bagpipes, electric bass and upright bass. He kind of took a break and now he is in college and learning classical guitar and that seems to be his happy place.

One of my kids played sax and clarinet and piano but he has dropped everything as of this year but he is in his senior year in high school. I tell myself he knows how to play music, if and when he wants to play again he has the knowledge base and tools.

My youngest son may be the one who is most self-motivated to play music. He plays sax and flute and wants to take piano lessons as soon as this awful pandemic clears up.

I tried to play upright bass once and had monstrous blisters on both hands the next day. That was enough of that.

I never did get all that good (on piano and guitar, bass was for the most part just to fill in lines on amateur recordings) but I still try to improve every day. IRL though I went to college, minored in music, graduated, and I got a haircut and got a real job.

 

[MattHooper]

Well since you are the OP I will respect your decision to continue driving this thread waayyy off topic.

I’ve tried to fool my kids into liking to play music.

One of my kids played cello, bagpipes, electric bass and upright bass. He kind of took a break and now he is in college and learning classical guitar and that seems to be his happy place.

One of my kids played sax and clarinet and piano but he has dropped everything as of this year but he is in he senior year in high school. I tell myself he knows how to play music, if and when he wants to play again he has the knowledge base and tools.

My youngest son may be the one who is most self-motivated. He plays sax and flute and wants to take piano lessons as soon as this awful pandemic clears up.

I tried to play upright bass once and had monstrous blisters on both hands the next day. That was enough of that.

I never did get all that good (on piano and guitar, bass was just to fill in lines on amateur recordings) but I still try to improve every day. IRL though I went to college, minored in music, graduated, and I got a haircut and got a real job.

Wow, you've got some musical progeny! Well done!

As for off topic, hey, the thread has sort of outlived it's usefulness in diagnosing my turntable issue, and my mind is wandering anyway

With my kids it reminds me of a friend (Canadian) who was an absolute hockey fanatic, one of those who had dreams of playing in the NHL.
He just "knew" he'd be playing tons of hockey with his son, and tutoring him to greatness. Turned out his son had zero interest in hockey. Had a passion for model trains or something. My friend always had this "deflated dream" look whenever he talked about it. Always reminds me: our kids are their own person and they are going to be who they are.

Neither of my sons are in to audio to the degree I am of course.

However my eldest does occaisionally ask if he can hear the latest release of some rap album on my system, and he zones out audiophile-like on the listening sofa. My other son absolutely loves music, and often makes requests to hear his favourite music on my system. (He tends to dance around though, which is fun).

 

[Sal1950]

But I was fortunate to grow up as the son of a jazz musician turned music teacher.

Very fortunate indeed, and lucky to have had the interest to follow the family love.
I don't see any rhyme or reason as to why maturing kids have and follow, or not, any particular interests or love. I've loved music all my life and had a wonderfully supportive family that would have offered me anything I needed to pursue a passion, but I didn't ask for it. Too lazy to apply myself probably when I could just turn on the radio or play a record. Only now do I realize what I missed.
I've been banging away on the Roland keyboard I bought but progress is slow and the arthritis in my hands and wrists limits the time I can practice. But I'll hang in there and see if I can't progress to a level that I can receive some pleasure from it. Time will tell.

 

[Robin L]

I brought up the guitar for a couple of reasons. But I'm going to start by noting that in spite of being a bit obsessive about "Classical" music and having recorded a lot of it as an audio "engineer", my proficiency as a guitarist is "meh". I was playing on bad instruments for decades until I decided to get a "real" guitar, thus the Martin DRS2. Happened to be the least expensive Martin with solid back, top and sides, the closest I get to a D-18 or D-28 at the time. I was obsessing over "the Absolute Sound" for almost as long as I've been playing records, and failed to get there until I got the Martin under my fingers. Up until a year ago, was playing in a lot of loose "Jam" settings, mostly Country-Folk, the I/IV/V stuff made famous by the Carter Family and their Ilk. The more I got to play that Martin the less time I had to play records [or CDs, or streams . . .]. Changing strings is way easier than swapping out cartridges. Usually I'm playing unplugged, but there's also a Roland Micro-cube for echo and sustain and the DRS2 has a built in pick up.

Anyway, hope to hear that Matt is happily spinning LPs soon.

 

[MattHooper]

Might as well update:

Curiouser and curiouser:

My friend had the cartridge playing in his system for several days. It turns out that after an initial moment of hearing distortion at one point, afterward it seemed to perform flawlessly for the next couple of days! So now it seems "fine."

But then, that's typical for me. My systems are well known among friends to be the Devil's Triangle of problems. I have the worst luck with gear. If a piece of gear shows up that actual "Just works" it's a miracle. Shit happens to my gear that always seems to be baffling. So when my friend says to me "works perfectly fine at my house" we both knowingly say "of course it does."

Now I have the cartridge back and I'm about to mount it on and try it again. First time doing so. My friend says make sure I'm wearing a T-shirt, no one is in the house, and I've reached a state of Zen in order to do this successfully without incident.

 

[watchnerd]

My friend says make sure I'm wearing a T-shirt

....and what does the t-shirt do...??

 

[MattHooper]

....and what does the t-shirt do...??

Ensures no sleeves to catch on stylus 'n stuff.

 

[Robin L]

Might as well update:

Curiouser and curiouser:

My friend had the cartridge playing in his system for several days. It turns out that after an initial moment of hearing distortion at one point, afterward it seemed to perform flawlessly for the next couple of days! So now it seems "fine."

But then, that's typical for me. My systems are well known among friends to be the Devil's Triangle of problems. I have the worst luck with gear. If a piece of gear shows up that actual "Just works" it's a miracle. Shit happens to my gear that always seems to be baffling. So when my friend says to me "works perfectly fine at my house" we both knowingly say "of course it does."

Now I have the cartridge back and I'm about to mount it on and try it again. First time doing so. My friend says make sure I'm wearing a T-shirt, no one is in the house, and I've reached a state of Zen in order to do this successfully without incident.

Good luck, take your time, don't drink any coffee before starting your install.

 

[watchnerd]

Ensures no sleeves to catch on stylus 'n stuff.

Huh.

I'd never thought about it.

The gain, I don't wear long sleeve shirts in my own house.

 

[MattHooper]

FWIW...I bought one of those cheap USB microscopes and took a look at the stylus. Here are some photos.
Covered with crap! (Even though I use one of those gel stylus cleaners). And looks worn?

 

[MattHooper]

Thing is, as my friend points out, even if worn it shouldn't produce the transient bouts of distortion as it has. It would just sound consistently worse than new.

Here's a used add for the Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge, with a few photos of the stylus:

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649586055-benz-micro-ebony-l/images/2553827/

(Just noticed, that cartridge had been re-tipped)