Help diagnosing distortion problem in LP playback, please.

[watchnerd]

This newer one is supposed to have addressed that issue, with a lower frequency, safe for the needle.

I think I'll pass....

 

[MattHooper]

I think I'll pass....

I'll be the gineau pig

I plan to use the US cleaner only once in a while.

I'll be sending this cartridge to be fixed/re-tipped. Gonna buy a cheaper cartridge to listen to while it's away.

Just finished doing my first cartridge set up today (putting my cartridge back on after lending it to my friend). Yeah, first time, it wasn't easy. In fact, true precision seemed like a pipe dream! But hopefully I'll be able to do it quicker next time.

 

[Sal1950]

I'll be sending this cartridge to be fixed/re-tipped. Gonna buy a cheaper cartridge to listen to while it's away.

Besides cost, it was all this sort of grief with MC's the sent me back to using TOTL MM's.
I've no idea what is available in todays market but I found the Stantons 881s and 681eee very much to my liking. The low tracking force and high compliance of the good ones has their advantages.
Many preferred the Shure V15 Type III's , Be sure to remove the massive dust brushes, this lowers the needed tracking force by 1 gram IIRC and IMO the big Shure brush resonates into the tracking shell blurring inner detail..

 

[watchnerd]

Besides cost, it was all this sort of grief with MC's the sent me back to using TOTL MM's.
I've no idea what is available in todays market but I found the Stantons 881s and 681eee very much to my liking. The low tracking force and high compliance of the good ones has their advantages.
Many preferred the Shure V15 Type III's , Be sure to remove the massive dust brushes, this lowers the needed tracking force by 1 gram IIRC and IMO the big Shure brush resonates into the tracking shell blurring inner detail..

Alas....

It seems like there is some cosmic joke at play, where the best-loved carts from the glory days of MM are the ones that are no longer in production....

 

[Sal1950]

Alas....

It seems like there is some cosmic joke at play, where the carts from the glory days of MM are the ones that are no longer in production....

I think the manufacturers feel they'd never be able to sell the old MM's at the ridiculous profit margins they're able to get for MC's, and they're probably right. If you can't price them in the high-end they won't be perceived as high-end and in that market it's all about perceptions.

 

[watchnerd]

I think the manufacturers feel they'd never be able to sell the old MM's at the ridiculous profit margins they're able to get for MC's, and they're probably right. If you can't price them in the high-end they won't be perceived as high-end and in that market it's all about perceptions.

Yeah, I think that's the logical explanation.

Although....I'm pretty amazed at what Nagaoka charges now for the MP-500 ($949) as an MM/MI cart, compared to what I paid for it (about half) before it got popular.

 

[MattHooper]

Well that ultra-sonic needle cleaning sure seemed the ticket. The sound has been very good, no distortion issues any more so far, so it may have been just that gunk on the needle!

Also, I've been carefully replacing items back to the way they were from the trouble-shooting period. Moved from the Bryston amp back to my CJ tube amps. As I'd mentioned earlier, I'd bought a cheap $100 solid state phono stage to replace my regular (pricey) phono stage, to see if the distortion was my regular phono stage (no). And I think I mentioned how surprisingly good the sound was from the cheap phono stage. It sounded nice and clean, though the sound did seem a bit flabby, less focused, looser bass, a sort of under-powered vibe. But still, very enjoyable.

I'd gotten used to the sound of that little $100 stage and almost started wondering "maybe that's all I need." Though I played some Rush yesterday and definitely noticed it didn't sound the way I remembered (seemed a tad opaque and under-powered). Anyway, today I switched back in my regular phono stage and...whoa! Ok, no, bye-bye little phono stage. It was sort of like pouring rocket fuel in to the speakers - everything tightened up - the imaging, the bass, the upper frequencies, the punch, impact, drive...just bursting through the speakers. I was frankly surprised at the difference.

I don't think any magic is going on of course. It's probably that the greater flexibility (in the settings) of my good phono stage allow just the right settings for the cartridge. But whatever it is, it sure makes a difference!

 

[watchnerd]

Well that ultra-sonic needle cleaning sure seemed the ticket. The sound has been very good, no distortion issues any more so far, so it may have been just that gunk on the needle!

Also, I've been carefully replacing items back to the way they were from the trouble-shooting period. Moved from the Bryston amp back to my CJ tube amps. As I'd mentioned earlier, I'd bought a cheap $100 solid state phono stage to replace my regular (pricey) phono stage, to see if the distortion was my regular phono stage (no). And I think I mentioned how surprisingly good the sound was from the cheap phono stage. It sounded nice and clean, though the sound did seem a bit flabby, less focused, looser bass, a sort of under-powered vibe. But still, very enjoyable.

I'd gotten used to the sound of that little $100 stage and almost started wondering "maybe that's all I need." Though I played some Rush yesterday and definitely noticed it didn't sound the way I remembered (seemed a tad opaque and under-powered). Anyway, today I switched back in my regular phono stage and...whoa! Ok, no, bye-bye little phono stage. It was sort of like pouring rocket fuel in to the speakers - everything tightened up - the imaging, the bass, the upper frequencies, the punch, impact, drive...just bursting through the speakers. I was frankly surprised at the difference.

I don't think any magic is going on of course. It's probably that the greater flexibility (in the settings) of my good phono stage allow just the right settings for the cartridge. But whatever it is, it sure makes a difference!

I've found surprising differences in phono stages, when I thought I shouldn't be able to notice.

Even with DSP phono stages.

I can pass ABX test matched to within 0.12 dB between the Puffin (Toslink out) and the Devialet, both set to 200 ohm.

Given their similarities in architecture, I'm at a loss to explain why.

 

[MattHooper]

Update:

Well, I decided I'm taking advantage of the Benz Micro trade in program to trade-in my cartridge for a brand new one.
I was going to send mine off for re-tip and pick up another cartridge in the meantime, but it started adding up closer to what it would cost to trade for a new cartridge so what the heck.

I could have sent the cartridge away for gawd-knows-how-long to be re-tipped and just listened to my digital source. But for one thing, I'm missing records. For another, I wish digital were really just "plug and play" but my Devil's Triangle Of Bad Luck has moved seamlessly to my digital system. I'm having all sorts of problems with lots of hair-pulling trouble-shooting, with no luck yet.

Apparently Benz Micro has gone somewhat AWOL in terms of north America, almost all dealer stocks gone and not replenishing. It happens the importer has one new unit of the Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge so I'm grabbing it. I figured why not stick with what I know I've liked?

As a further act of analog self-flagellation, I think I've decided to order one of these cartridge set up systems, that many seem to rate highly:

https://mintlp.com/best.htm

You send your turntable/arm info to this gentleman and he sends a customized set up tool. The aim with the tool is to adjust via the actual stylus angle, rather than the cartridge case (given the stylus can be off angle to the cartridge).

 

[watchnerd]

Update:

Well, I decided I'm taking advantage of the Benz Micro trade in program to trade-in my cartridge for a brand new one.
I was going to send mine off for re-tip and pick up another cartridge in the meantime, but it started adding up closer to what it would cost to trade for a new cartridge so what the heck.

I could have sent the cartridge away for gawd-knows-how-long to be re-tipped and just listened to my digital source. But for one thing, I'm missing records. For another, I wish digital were really just "plug and play" but my Devil's Triangle Of Bad Luck has moved seamlessly to my digital system. I'm having all sorts of problems with lots of hair-pulling trouble-shooting, with no luck yet.

Apparently Benz Micro has gone somewhat AWOL in terms of north America, almost all dealer stocks gone and not replenishing. It happens the importer has one new unit of the Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge so I'm grabbing it. I figured why not stick with what I know I've liked?

As a further act of analog self-flagellation, I think I've decided to order one of these cartridge set up systems, that many seem to rate highly:

https://mintlp.com/best.htm

You send your turntable/arm info to this gentleman and he sends a customized set up tool. The aim with the tool is to adjust via the actual stylus angle, rather than the cartridge case (given the stylus can be off angle to the cartridge).

I have a Mint protractor for my Jelco SA-750D arm (which is not currently mounted).

I haven't inquired to see if they make them for my SME, but maybe I should since the cardboard protractor that came with the arm is getting a little bent.

I have to keep it inside a heavy book between uses to flatten it out....although sometimes I forget which book I stuck it in.

 

[MattHooper]

I have a Mint protractor for my Jelco SA-750D arm (which is not currently mounted).

I haven't inquired to see if they make them for my SME, but maybe I should since the cardboard protractor that came with the arm is getting a little bent.

I have to keep it inside a heavy book between uses to flatten it out....although sometimes I forget which book I stuck it in.

You've got the mint protractor already?

I appreciate you watchnerd. As one of the few spinning LPs around here you make me feel just a bit less nutty

 

[richard12511]

After an initial half-hearted try, they've sat unused. I keep thinking "I'll try them soon, soon...." but it's such a damned hassle "doing it right" with all the room EQ etc, I can't be arsed. Again, they've turned in to a running "thing" that my pal brings up "so how are those subwoofers sounding? "

You should pay someone to do it

 

[MattHooper]

You should pay someone to do it

I definitely would! That's more my style

I paid a local turntable guru to set it up originally 3 years ago. He used a fancy computer program. I'd hire him again but we are in pretty severe pandemic lock-down and households can't have visitors. Hence...diving in to it myself.

 

[Sal1950]

I'd hire him again but we are in pretty severe pandemic lock-down and households can't have visitors.

Wow, Hey Matt I forget, where are you located?

 

[watchnerd]

You've got the mint protractor already?

I appreciate you watchnerd. As one of the few spinning LPs around here you make me feel just a bit less nutty

I got it years ago!

 

[MattHooper]

Wow, Hey Matt I forget, where are you located?

Ontario, Canada

 

[MattHooper]

I got it years ago!

When you were crazier

I need to at least try it. Even though the major distortion problem is gone I'm definitely not getting the sound I'm used to. There's a sort of subtle sandy/gritty haze, where previously I was used to a beautiful liquid smooth sound with more timbral variety. When my friend gave my cartridge back to me I borrowed his Project Align It tool to try my hand at installing the cartridge. I couldn't quite get things precise, especially the overhang.
So I don't know if the substandard sound I'm hearing is due to the lingering cartridge wear, my ham-handed cartridge set up skillz, or a combo.

 

[watchnerd]

When you were crazier

I need to at least try it. Even though the major distortion problem is gone I'm definitely not getting the sound I'm used to. There's a sort of subtle sandy/gritty haze, where previously I was used to a beautiful liquid smooth sound with more timbral variety. When my friend gave my cartridge back to me I borrowed his Project Align It tool to try my hand at installing the cartridge. I couldn't quite get things precise, especially the overhang.
So I don't know if the substandard sound I'm hearing is due to the lingering cartridge wear, my ham-handed cartridge set up skillz, or a combo.

That's why I like having more than one cart.

It keeps me sane because it allows me to eliminate cartridge problems as a variable.

Even a cheapie can be handy as a spare to have around for testing, or when you need to send something in for a replacement.

 

[Sal1950]

Ontario, Canada

Dang, a bit Draconian saying you can't even invite a friend over. OUCH

 

[b_a_r]

When you were crazier

I need to at least try it. Even though the major distortion problem is gone I'm definitely not getting the sound I'm used to. There's a sort of subtle sandy/gritty haze, where previously I was used to a beautiful liquid smooth sound with more timbral variety. When my friend gave my cartridge back to me I borrowed his Project Align It tool to try my hand at installing the cartridge. I couldn't quite get things precise, especially the overhang.
So I don't know if the substandard sound I'm hearing is due to the lingering cartridge wear, my ham-handed cartridge set up skillz, or a combo.

After reading through this thread it reminded me of a similar problem i had a while back. Had a Benz cart on a Project 6.1 table. Started hearing distortion etc.. drove me nuts trying to chase it down. Ended up being a bad bearing/cup in the tonearm and it was slightly cocking the entire pivot making the azimuth badly misaligned. This ended up causing the suspension in the Benz to fail too.. so a combo.
I scored some new bearings from pro-Ject and recently resurrected the table with a used AirTight PC-1 a friend loaned me. Sounds great.
My opinion and experience: You really REALLY have to get your overhang/zenith, Azimuth & VTA dialed to get a consistently clean wonderful sound. I have used the Mint protractor on a few tables and it is very good.
I’d double check that tonearm and/or it’s bearing since the cleaning lady aced it. I have a hunch it could be related/causing some issue.
Keep us updated!