Help diagnosing distortion problem in LP playback, please.

[EJ3]

I take a photo on my phone and zoom in. The phone has a light, too; the chances of me having a magnifying glass and a torch at the same time are minimal, and then I'm using both hands...

As long as you have battery power that is a great solution.

 

[watchnerd]

@MattHooper

The better option these days is a USB microscope with stand, which you can also use for setting alignment and VTA/SRA.

As well as azimuth, if one is using a visual, as opposed to electronic, method.

 

[EJ3]

@MattHooper

The better option these days is a USB microscope with stand, which you can also use for setting alignment and VTA/SRA.

As well as azimuth, if one is using a visual, as opposed to electronic, method.

Oh, the hazards of living on Indian Ocean and Pacific Islands for 18 years. I have heard of the USB microscopes (and forgotten about them) but have never seen one. A capital idea (and a stand, too).

 

[MattHooper]

@MattHooper

The better option these days is a USB microscope with stand, which you can also use for setting alignment and VTA/SRA.

As well as azimuth, if one is using a visual, as opposed to electronic, method.

Aggghh!

Took off my cartridge and gave it to my pal - who is pretty experienced with turntables. He put it on his turntable and has played a bunch of albums: no distortion he says and it sounds like a great cartridge!

He'll keep the cartridge for a while to ensure the distortion doesn't crop up, but on my system I would have heard distortion already.

So...if I replaced my phono stage, have even tried a different amp (Bryston my friend lent me), tested my pre-amp (digital signal has no distortion through my preamp, and distortion follows the phono signal if I put the cable to my usual digital aux input). I've wiggled wires going in and out of the phono stage. Now the cartridge seems ok.

WHAT'S LEFT?

The tonearm? Not sure how this shape shifting distortion could be due ot the tonearm, but what do I know?

 

[Robin L]

Aggghh!

Took off my cartridge and gave it to my pal - who is pretty experienced with turntables. He put it on his turntable and has played a bunch of albums: no distortion he says and it sounds like a great cartridge!

He'll keep the cartridge for a while to ensure the distortion doesn't crop up, but on my system I would have heard distortion already.

So...if I replaced my phono stage, have even tried a different amp (Bryston my friend lent me), tested my pre-amp (digital signal has no distortion through my preamp, and distortion follows the phono signal if I put the cable to my usual digital aux input). I've wiggled wires going in and out of the phono stage. Now the cartridge seems ok.

WHAT'S LEFT?

The tonearm? Not sure how this shape shifting distortion could be due ot the tonearm, but what do I know?

Friction.

 

[EJ3]

Aggghh!

Took off my cartridge and gave it to my pal - who is pretty experienced with turntables. He put it on his turntable and has played a bunch of albums: no distortion he says and it sounds like a great cartridge!

He'll keep the cartridge for a while to ensure the distortion doesn't crop up, but on my system I would have heard distortion already.

So...if I replaced my phono stage, have even tried a different amp (Bryston my friend lent me), tested my pre-amp (digital signal has no distortion through my preamp, and distortion follows the phono signal if I put the cable to my usual digital aux input). I've wiggled wires going in and out of the phono stage. Now the cartridge seems ok.

WHAT'S LEFT?

The tonearm? Not sure how this shape shifting distortion could be due ot the tonearm, but what do I know?

Let you friend use your system. It must be something. Have him over for a day listening session. Pay for a meal and a couple of adult libations. And hope that it happens after he sets your cartridge back up. If it doesn't happen, between the two of you, you've accidently exorcised the problem.

 

[Robin L]

I remember having similar problems with my AR XA that were friction related issues with the tonearm.

 

[MattHooper]

Update:

My friend just phoned: "It's the cartridge" he said.

My friend had been listening to albums and getting great sound for quite a while. But then things started distorting on energetic transients and it got worse until the sound was just distorting.

So, I guess that's it.

Dang, that was a nice expensive cartridge thrown in to the deal when I bought my turntable second hand. Benz Micro Ebony L. Cartridge is a little over 3 years old, played probably 1 - 2 hours a day over that time.

Deciding what I'll do (e.g. get that cartridge re-tipped/replaced) I asked my friend for an evaluation of the cartridge while it was working well.
He has had, and still has, many different cartridges (he reviews vinyl equipment) and is actually a cheap-skate by nature, usually advising me to go the cheaper route normally because of diminishing returns/exaggerations about differences in performance. So normally he'd tell me "ah, just replace it with a $500 ortofon, everything else is diminishing returns at best. I was sort of fishing for that advice. But he said in this case he had to tell me, that thing is a really great sounding cartridge and, yes, to his mind worth the money to re-tip/replace if I'm looking to maintain the level of performance I'm used to.

So there it is.

Much thanks to all who helped me out in this thread. I asked many people their opinions and most were scratching their head over how it could be the cartrdige given the weird variation and transient nature of the distortion. I still don't get how it would play perfectly for many albums at my friend's place and THEN start distorting all over the place.

 

[Robin L]

Update:

My friend just phoned: "It's the cartridge" he said.

My friend had been listening to albums and getting great sound for quite a while. But then things started distorting on energetic transients and it got worse until the sound was just distorting.

So, I guess that's it.

Dang, that was a nice expensive cartridge thrown in to the deal when I bought my turntable second hand. Benz Micro Ebony L. Cartridge is a little over 3 years old, played probably 1 - 2 hours a day over that time.

Deciding what I'll do (e.g. get that cartridge re-tipped/replaced) I asked my friend for an evaluation of the cartridge while it was working well.
He has had, and still has, many different cartridges (he reviews vinyl equipment) and is actually a cheap-skate by nature, usually advising me to go the cheaper route normally because of diminishing returns/exaggerations about differences in performance. So normally he'd tell me "ah, just replace it with a $500 ortofon, everything else is diminishing returns at best. I was sort of fishing for that advice. But he said in this case he had to tell me, that thing is a really great sounding cartridge and, yes, to his mind worth the money to re-tip/replace if I'm looking to maintain the level of performance I'm used to.

So there it is.

Much thanks to all who helped me out in this thread. I asked many people their opinions and most were scratching their head over how it could be the cartrdige given the weird variation and transient nature of the distortion. I still don't get how it would play perfectly for many albums at my friend's place and THEN start distorting all over the place.

The tip could be fine but the suspension could be shot.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Man digital audio sure is nice.

 

[MattHooper]

The tip could be fine but the suspension could be shot.

I appreciate all your suggestions Robin. Thanks again!

Benz Micro has a trade in program, so instead of just re-tipping (apparently quite expensive) they'll give a new cartridge at a substantial discount.
I'll see how that goes probably first.

 

[Robin L]

I appreciate all your suggestions Robin. Thanks again!

Benz Micro has a trade in program, so instead of just re-tipping (apparently quite expensive) they'll give a new cartridge at a substantial discount.
I'll see how that goes probably first.

I've gone through so many cartridges, most gave up the ghost when the stylus shank bent or the tip wore out. I remember reading in a Hi-Fi magazine how the suspension's plastic could lose elasticity over time, making NOS cartridges a big gamble. Something about ozone eating the elastomer. Again, I've gone through so much of this over time, I'm relieved to not have to deal with it any more. Swapping out old for new sounds like a good idea. I know when things are going well for LP playback, it can be hypnotizing. However, I've taken the cure.

 

[MattHooper]

Man digital audio sure is nice.

Ha! Preach it brother!

My Benchmark DAC 1 has been solid as a rock for more years than I can remember. In fact, I actually bought a Benchmark DAC 2L quite a while back because I was thinking of a slightly different arrangement for my system. But I never actually put it in my system. Sonically, no need given the DAC 1 performs perfectly.

Though, that said, aside from the hardware I don't find digital necessarily free from work or issues. Ripping my CD collection for months was frankly one of the more miserable chores of my audiophile life. Getting all the tagging right was never fun nor perfect, same whenever I get a new CD in. Plus I hate handling and storing CDs. And I've dealt with various issues with my streaming set up. (I use a Raspberry Pi/Logitech server set up). For instance my favorite electronica station has stopped working via my streaming system, no idea why, lots of frustrating trudging through the deeper realm of technical trouble-shooting to even get a hint and still no solution.

As for vinyl, I've got sunk costs now It really has become my main form of enjoying music on my system, and at this point I still feel the occaisional pain is worth the gain. After all, this is the only issue with vinyl playback I've had in 3 years and presumably just replacing the cartridge will be the fix.

 

[watchnerd]

Man digital audio sure is nice.

EZ MODE

 

[watchnerd]

Update:

My friend just phoned: "It's the cartridge" he said.

My friend had been listening to albums and getting great sound for quite a while. But then things started distorting on energetic transients and it got worse until the sound was just distorting.

So, I guess that's it.

Dang, that was a nice expensive cartridge thrown in to the deal when I bought my turntable second hand. Benz Micro Ebony L. Cartridge is a little over 3 years old, played probably 1 - 2 hours a day over that time.

Bummer, sorry to hear that.

But at least it was a freebie cart thrown in with the deal.

 

[Blumlein 88]

EZ MODE

Well as I age, I find being hair shirted isn't as appealing as it once was. Taking the EZ way out is okay believe it or not sometimes.

I'm just funning with MattHooper anyway.

I at one point decided the quality of digital was better than Lp and tired of keeping duplicate systems. I was working then. Were I retired I too might have never gotten rid of the old records. But now retired I'm not going back. I had several hundred LPs and selling it off was a chore, but okay once I had done it. I even had providential interference just as I made the decision. Someone out of the blue offered me a trade on a top of the line Sota Cosmo TT for an extra DAC I was selling. I had always wanted a SOTA but had never spent quite that much money. I ended up doing the trade as economically it was a sweet deal for me. A buddy also wanted a SOTA at the time. I called him up and said, "hey, if I could get you a Cosmo for this much money would you want it?" He said yes sort of not believing me. When I got the SOTA in, took it straight to my buddy's house and never opened it up. Too tempting. My buddy had like 8000 LPs so it went to a good home. I spent the proceeds on a Wadia DAC.

 

[watchnerd]

Well as I age, I find being hair shirted isn't as appealing as it once was. Taking the EZ way out is okay believe it or not sometimes.

I'm just funning with MattHooper anyway.

I at one point decided the quality of digital was better than Lp and tired of keeping duplicate systems. I was working then. Were I retired I too might have never gotten rid of the old records. But now retired I'm not going back. I had several hundred LPs and selling it off was a chore, but okay once I had done it. I even had providential interference just as I made the decision. Someone out of the blue offered me a trade on a top of the line Sota Cosmo TT for an extra DAC I was selling. I had always wanted a SOTA but had never spent quite that much money. I ended up doing the trade as economically it was a sweet deal for me. A buddy also wanted a SOTA at the time. I called him up and said, "hey, if I could get you a Cosmo for this much money would you want it?" He said yes sort of not believing me. When I got the SOTA in, took it straight to my buddy's house and never opened it up. Too tempting. My buddy had like 8000 LPs so it went to a good home. I spent the proceeds on a Wadia DAC.

Digital is great if all you want to do is listen to music.

 

[Robin L]

Digital is great if all you want to do is listen to music.

A Martin DRS2 is even better:

 

[MattHooper]

Digital is great if all you want to do is listen to music.

Just to take that jokey comment a little bit seriously.

Yes you are certainly right in one sense - there's additional "stuff" with vinyl.

On the other hand, as always, the devil is in the details. Depends on what digital system you are using vs which vinyl system.

So for instance, lots of crusty old audiophiles who tossed away their LPs when CDs came along and never looked back, are still listening to plenty of CDs. In that case there isn't much difference insofar as getting to the music listening. In both cases you have to go to wherever you've stored your physical media, take it out of it's case/jacket, place in/on the player, and play. So it's a bit of a wash there. Especially if you only listen to one side of an album ;-)

On the other hand you may go directly to streaming. But then, if you are an "audiophile" of the type found in forums like this you aren't just streaming out of a smart speaker. You are likely paying some attention to your digital front end. And maybe you've had to set up your own server.
That *can* be some work, and certainly more than just someone who buys an easy-to-used turntable and never has to think about such finicky things.

Further, plenty of audiophiles spend significant time setting up their digital music systems. Again, if you want to be able to stream your CDs, ripping them if you've got a lot is a lot of work, not to mention organizing them and dealing with meta data/organisation challenges. Again, nothing you have to do with vinyl records.

And one's choice of server/software will also play in to things. Look at the amount of time many audiophiles put in to using/tweaking their Roon systems! Look at how much forum time on the internet is devoted to digital oriented audiophiles getting up to speed on their server systems/software, trouble-shooting, trying all the many features, organizing, sharing tips etc. There's plenty who use vinyl who don't bother about that stuff.

So, while there is certainly a superficial truth to recognize that digital *can* be more direct and easier than a turntable *once you have it all perfectly set up* in practice, many audiophiles will find ways for the technical aspect of digital music to take up their time as well.

 

[StevenEleven]

Folks,

Recently I've had a problem with distortion creeping in to my LP playback system.

Initially when the system is turned on, playing a record (that is in good condition) will sound clean enough, but after a few minutes distortion will start to occur, at first just barely "is it there?" level of grittiness and then it gets worse until the sound is covered in a layer of haze/fuzz, with transients distorting very obviously, like an over-driven amp. Or the type of fuzzy playback you get when a big hunk of dust got hung up on your needle. (The needle is fine, I keep it very clean).

I turn the system off, and the same thing happens the next time I use it.

Any ideas for trouble-shooting this?

My turntable and Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge and phono stage are 3 years old. Well cared for.

I don't know how it could be the stylus, which as I say is kept very clean and not sure distortion would have this type of "starts clean, becomes really distorted" character ever time.

And my tube amp/tube pre-amp seem fine: my digital source displays no distortion.

Which makes my hunch go towards my phono stage. It's a JE Audio phono stage that uses 2 small 6H30 tubes as buffer stages. I'm wondering if this might be a sign of a tube or both going south? Any other ideas?

Thanks for any input!

I haven’t read the whole thread, just the OP and a few subsequent posts. Sorry about that.

Just a suggestion. . . Is the cartridge on straight? If it’s crooked, you’ll get that, increasing audible problems as the cartridge works its way toward the inner grooves of the LP. In fact, you’ll get that anyway, it’s just more pronounced if your cartridge is crooked.

Also, you probably know this, but you want to check your anti-skating setting and your tracking force. Those can cause problems that get progressively worse as you make it toward the inside grooves.

Also you want to make sure the cartridge is wired in correctly. Probably so, but if not, if you have a way of summing to mono, it will get a lot quieter when you sum to mono. Then you’ll know some wires are not connected up right in a way that really degrades the sound.

Also, though it’s probably sacrilege to say so, you can get a pretty neutral cartridge for pretty cheap if you need to rule out the cartridge as a cause. It’s not magic and it doesn’t require any high-end voodoo stuff. As people say, it’s not rocket science to change the cartridge. Fidgety and frustrating and unpleasant, yes, absolutely, if you have anger management problems maybe don’t do it, if you are not sober, don’t do it, but truth is it’s not that difficult and it’s kind of interesting.

IMHO & etc.