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Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!

Jimi Floyd

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Left to their own devices people like french fries with gobs of salt, mashed potatoes with four pats or more of butter and then plenty of salt and pepper, stawberries and shortbread topped with a fist-sized double dollop of whipped cream, double-fudge brownies, five ounces of highly sweet and highly salty BBQ sauce on six onces of beef, and so fourth. You get my drift. I want the JBL speaker with double whipped cream, and plenty of hot fudge on it. You people must absolutely hate the quiet countryside. Maybe it is getting harder and harder to drag or spur us out of our stupor. What do I know?
Apparently, not so much.
 

Tom C

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View attachment 222004

The elevated treble is not really seen in measurements. The biases of West Coast sound are just biases* (when looking at modern JBLs).

I think a key difference is avoiding compression at high SPLs even if this can introduce some distortion. To get low distortion and high SPLs, you need to get into the K2, 4365, Everest line of gear. The 4367 is exceptional but the Revel Salon2 does better for distortion esp at lower SPLs but perhaps maybe not as good as the Salon’s.

The K2 and Everest are more expensive than the Revel’s and are engineered with spinorama in mind.
I am at a loss as to how you can say this. I think Erin included distortion measurements in his review of 4367. Stereophile reviewed Salon2, but no distortion measurements that I found. Maybe I overlooked them. SoundStage! measured Salon2, and included a distortion graph, but the measurement was off the lower limit of the graph for much of the frequency range, so for those we don’t know what the values actually are. How can you compare distortion levels of Salon2 vs 4367. Is a full data set available for each at upper SPL?
Also, low distortion and high SPL are available in JBL at less than Everest prices. I own 705p and 4349, and both get satisfyingly loud at low distortion. Now, the best in my home in that regard is a pair of Eon 610 with a pair of 618s subwoofers. Properly set up, you’ll turn it down to preserve your hearing before you turn it down because of distortion.

PS
The notion of upward tilt in the treble is a little slippery, because it depends some on where you draw the FR line. But the passive JBL models have a treble trim control, sometimes two, that allow the user to adjust. Seems like a quaint, old fashioned feature, but then, the Salons have them too, I believe. Guess there are lots of people out the without any kind of room correction or EQ.
 

fpitas

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I am at a loss as to how you can say this. I think Erin included distortion measurements in his review of 4367. Stereophile reviewed Salon2, but no distortion measurements that I found. Maybe I overlooked them. SoundStage! measured Salon2, and included a distortion graph, but the measurement was off the lower limit of the graph for much of the frequency range, so for those we don’t know what the values actually are. How can you compare distortion levels of Salon2 vs 4367. Is a full data set available for each at upper SPL?
Also, low distortion and high SPL are available in JBL at less than Everest prices. I own 705p and 4349, and both get satisfyingly loud at low distortion. Now, the best in my home in that regard is a pair of Eon 610 with a pair of 618s subwoofers. Properly set up, you’ll turn it down to preserve your hearing before you turn it down because of distortion.

PS
The notion of upward tilt in the treble is a little slippery, because it depends some on where you draw the FR line. But the passive JBL models have a treble trim control, sometimes two, that allow the user to adjust. Seems like a quaint, old fashioned feature, but then, the Salons have them too, I believe. Guess there are lots of people out the without any kind of room correction or EQ.
EQ is still a bad word to a lot of audiophiles. Check out some of the other forums and you'll find oceans of ignorance...
 

Tom C

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I cover the LED's as well and listen in the near dark most often.
Anyone who thinks that is weird has not encountered the searing LED of 2022. (why o' why are they so bright?)
I don't enjoy listening with my eyes closed at all. I completely changes the experience for me. I deff like them open as it helps me "see" the sound if you will.

The rest of my post didn't lay down for you what I was throwing down?
Taken out of context I must seem so strange.
Oh well. Anyway, thinking about your handle, I also love Paul Newman and my favorite movie he is in is ,"Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", good thing Sundance was so quick.
When I see Newman, I always think of Seinfeld.
 

GXAlan

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I am at a loss as to how you can say this. I think Erin included distortion measurements in his review of 4367. Stereophile reviewed Salon2, but no distortion measurements that I found. Maybe I overlooked them. SoundStage! measured Salon2, and included a distortion graph, but the measurement was off the lower limit of the graph for much of the frequency range, so for those we don’t know what the values actually are. How can you compare distortion levels of Salon2 vs 4367. Is a full data set available for each at upper SPL?
Also, low distortion and high SPL are available in JBL at less than Everest prices. I own 705p and 4349, and both get satisfyingly loud at low distortion. Now, the best in my home in that regard is a pair of Eon 610 with a pair of 618s subwoofers. Properly set up, you’ll turn it down to preserve your hearing before you turn it down because of distortion.

PS
The notion of upward tilt in the treble is a little slippery, because it depends some on where you draw the FR line. But the passive JBL models have a treble trim control, sometimes two, that allow the user to adjust. Seems like a quaint, old fashioned feature, but then, the Salons have them too, I believe. Guess there are lots of people out the without any kind of room correction or EQ.

For the record, I'm a big JBL fan. My main setup includes the S/2600 from 1994 which I shipped from Japan to the US via Air Freight if that tells you something. :) These are 12" 2-way versions of the Everest DD55000. I like Revels, but voting with my wallet, I've spent more money on JBLs.

The JBL 4367 whitepaper shows the distortion of the compression drivers at 96 dB.
You can compare them to the measurements of the F328Be that's here which is similar to the tweeters in the Salon 2 or the 4349 measured here.

I agree with you that you'll preserve your hearing rather than deal with distortion. I think that distortion is fundamentally a difference between compression drivers and standard dome tweeters when given the same budget to work with.
 

ROOSKIE

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How could you quantify such a thing though if a soft dome measures like this?

SB19ST-C000-4-curve.jpg


A couple dB here and there but pretty flat. SB Acoustics.


Anyway it's a raw response and not exactly what you'll get in a speaker box, but just trying to figure out what about the driver would cause that.
1st, to be clear I can't quantify it. Even if I was going to, the frequency response by itself doesn't seem like enough data. Find me a driver manufacturer who only looks at that in house when creating a driver.

Anecdotally, I have used several SB drivers with textile domes. I currently have two speakers here that have them installed(the same tweeter in this case). One is horn loaded/waveguided and one a 3way without a horn.
They sound very different from each other in many ways and similar in others.
I would bet if I was blind tested or anyone with some level of experience was tested blind they would guess they are both soft domes and not metal. As well between Just these 2, I think picking the horn would be possible if one new 1 of the 2 had a horn. Just 2 designs though and a guess about a hypothetical test, so clearly not a white paper.

In any case per your postulation, nothing I have said in my posts does not mean that ultimately a soft dome can't sound indistinguishable from a metal and therefore a metal dome sound sound indistinguishable from a textile.

Anecdotally have you heard very many design that you thought had soft domes that turned out to be metal or very many metal domes that turned out to be soft domes? I am just curious, I have a couple times. Generally though I think I have been able to tell or least note a preference for a sound that is most common so far on designs I have heard using metal tweeters. How many variables beyond driver material many be contributing here? Many of course.

Really, you are asking a question about something that is still very controversial.(or not depending on how one leans in on this)
Driver materials.
So far I have not noted a preference for designs using a particular material in woofers in myself. Though I do think that if someone could truly isolate just the material there would be some difference inherent. It would be fun to find out.

With tweeters again how would Isolate the material enough? In any case if I take a BE tweeter or a good ceramic alum I have a stiff very lightweight material. With a good textile I have the lightweight but not the stiffness.
When playing at a good robust volume and dealing with crescendos are the soft and stiff drivers behaving exactly the same way?
When they overload a bit are they presenting the same quality.

Anyway golden ears aside, people are not sensitive in the exact same ways. Especially with regard to what we are extra sensitive toward or typically pay extra attention to whether naturally or when sitting upright and at attention.

For myself, like some others, I believe I pay quite a bit of attention to the highs.
I do believe some very subtle things (that I not saying are the result of golden ears) that happen in the treble region are things I many just be attracted to and extra sensitive toward like some other folks and unlike some others. At that point if there is variation then a general preference may emerge.

For my REVEL M126be speakers I was skeptical about Be. In DIY products it is absurdly expensive and many great speakers don't use it. I purchased the M126Be speakers as I really liked the M105, loved the M16 and went to buy the M106 to get the extra power of the 6.5" driver with the M105 design character. I ended up just going for the M126Be as the price offered was worth giving them a shot. Normally at retail $2200 vs $4400 is pretty crazy but the discount on the M126Be was substantial. It would be great to compare someday the M106 and M126Be even though they are completely different speakers with different drivers they have the family similarity and I am curious how they sound side by side.

One thing that would be really interesting is to ask Harman why they chose Metal Tweeters for their entire REVEL line. Same goes for KEF, GENELEC, Neumann, Perlisten and other manufacturers that do a lot of testing and use design approaches rooted in science. Why did they choose the tweeters they did. Especially as there is a lot of metal tweeters in the above manufacturer list. Though obviously others use soft domes or other materials. Arendal, KII, and many others. JBL is using a mixture and I have to say that Teonix(fancy mylar??) is really interesting so far as possible metal lover.
One speaker I'd like to hear but just have not is the Tekton Impact Monitor that measures extremely well and uses a soft dome tweeter and of course that array of additional tweeters as sort of dispersion control upper midrange unit.
Dennis Murphy has used a wide variety of tweeters in his design and folks swear by all of them. I'd be interested din his take on tweeter driver material. He definitely has stated he doesn't like waveguides.
 

Frank Dernie

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True as a general statement, but I found the Tune Audio "Anima" to be totally wonderful for orchestral music. (I think @Frank Dernie uses them.) I wasn't convinced by other genres through them, though.
Listening to Puccini on them as I type.
I listen to my Goldmund Epilogs more than the Animas probably.
 

Frank Dernie

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How could you quantify such a thing though if a soft dome measures like this?

SB19ST-C000-4-curve.jpg


A couple dB here and there but pretty flat. SB Acoustics.


Anyway it's a raw response and not exactly what you'll get in a speaker box, but just trying to figure out what about the driver would cause that.
Soft dome tweeters will be breaking up in their pass band and rely on a correct level of damping to smooth the peaks. They will be radiating modally, like NXT do at all frequencies and the BMR does at high frequencies.

It is clearly possible to get a pretty smooth FR nevertheless as has been done for decades.
It is possible with metal diaphragms for the moving element to behave like a piston over its entire pass band.

This is less of a bodge on getting an even FR, how audible the damped resonances in soft dome tweeters are I have no idea.

My favourite speakers use a Scanspeak Revelator soft dome tweeter which has been available for decades :)

https://wilmslowaudio.co.uk/detailed-tweeters/scanspeak-revelator-d2904710003

 

Chromatischism

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With tweeters again how would Isolate the material enough? In any case if I take a BE tweeter or a good ceramic alum I have a stiff very lightweight material. With a good textile I have the lightweight but not the stiffness.
When playing at a good robust volume and dealing with crescendos are the soft and stiff drivers behaving exactly the same way?
When they overload a bit are they presenting the same quality.
Wouldn't such things show as breakup and/or compression? What if you don't measure any on a soft dome? Wouldn't that make it a worthy tweeter? Within the limits of the application, of course.
 

ROOSKIE

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Wouldn't such things show as breakup and/or compression? What if you don't measure any on a soft dome? Wouldn't that make it a worthy tweeter? Within the limits of the application, of course.
Possibly of course.
I am most interested in IMD and compression while playing multiple sounds at once not just a sweep. I am also interested in how and if off axis sound/dispersion changes when the domes are pressed hard and especially the soft dome as it deforms.
Part of what I asked is does the material sound the same when it is stressed?

I certainly have soft dome based designs that I like so this is not about whether textile domes are worthy to me. Likewise there are designs using metal domes that are not good or to my liking.

I have some really nice (I hope as there we sort of pricey) Wavecore 30mm soft dome tweeters here than I plan to make a speaker with and some Peerless and Dayton soft domes here as well. I do enjoy speakers and drivers and am not closed to any material.
Again though it sure seems odd that so many of the speakers that are my favorites are metal based tweeter designs. I have no particular love of shiny things.

Anyway thanks for chatting/listening to my posts. I am off the original topic, though I guess driver material and horn sound are cousins.
 

TimF

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I know sometimes I post statements that are off topic for a thread, and sometimes I've posted off the mark comments. Last weekend I got a pair of Revel Performa3 f208 speakers and I'm trying various recordings as I get used to them. Some of my old standard recordings I used for assessing equipment I don't use any more because the equipment got better over the years and those recordings don't hold up well to better fidelity equipment. What I really want to say is that as I was listening to Ravel on the new Revels I had the odd sense that the tweeters were looking at me. It's the nature protecting think in front of the tweeters. They seem to follow me around the room. I can imagine the speaker saying to me "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that."
 
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Chromatischism

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I know sometimes I post statements that are off topic for a thread, and sometimes I've posted off the mark comments. Last weekend I got a pair of Revel Performa3 f208 speakers and I'm trying various recordings as I get used to them. Some of my old standard recordings I used for assessing equipment I don't use any more because the equipment got better over the years and those recordings don't hold up well to better fidelity equipment. What I really want to say is that as I was listening to Ravel on the new Revels I had the odd sense that the tweeters were looking at me. It's the nature protecting think in front of the tweeters. They seem to follow me around the room.
Sounds like you've started the weekend early, bud. More power to you
gr_cheers.gif
 

goat76

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I know sometimes I post statements that are off topic for a thread, and sometimes I've posted off the mark comments. Last weekend I got a pair of Revel Performa3 f208 speakers and I'm trying various recordings as I get used to them. Some of my old standard recordings I used for assessing equipment I don't use any more because the equipment got better over the years and those recordings don't hold up well to better fidelity equipment. What I really want to say is that as I was listening to Ravel on the new Revels I had the odd sense that the tweeters were looking at me. It's the nature protecting think in front of the tweeters. They seem to follow me around the room. I can imagine the speaker saying to me "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that."
The day your Revels start stalking you at your workplace, you should get rid of them.

How is your relationship with horns? :)
 

Laserjock

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I know sometimes I post statements that are off topic for a thread, and sometimes I've posted off the mark comments. Last weekend I got a pair of Revel Performa3 f208 speakers and I'm trying various recordings as I get used to them. Some of my old standard recordings I used for assessing equipment I don't use any more because the equipment got better over the years and those recordings don't hold up well to better fidelity equipment. What I really want to say is that as I was listening to Ravel on the new Revels I had the odd sense that the tweeters were looking at me. It's the nature protecting think in front of the tweeters. They seem to follow me around the room. I can imagine the speaker saying to me "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that."
A2CD5B44-95BE-40EF-B232-2701848C56FB.jpeg

Sounds like you need to set some “boundaries”…
 
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paulgyro

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What are your current speakers and listening environment?
Arendal 1723 Monitor THX in a dedicated room that is ~320 square feet / 3000 cubic feet that is carpeted and decently acoustically treated.
 
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paulgyro

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Three well-engineered speakers have some differences and your preferences are your own. I wouldn't overthink it.

It's not like you think you heard a big difference because of some wires or other voodoo.
Thanks for this wise and realistic comment. I'm just trying to figure out technically WHY The 4367 sounds like it does and how I can find other speakers that have the same type of sound.
 
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paulgyro

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View attachment 222004

The elevated treble is not really seen in measurements. The biases of West Coast sound are just biases* (when looking at modern JBLs).

I think a key difference is avoiding compression at high SPLs even if this can introduce some distortion. To get low distortion and high SPLs, you need to get into the K2, 4365, Everest line of gear. The 4367 is exceptional but the Revel Salon2 does better for distortion esp at lower SPLs but perhaps maybe not as good as the Salon’s.

The K2 and Everest are more expensive than the Revel’s and are engineered with spinorama in mind.
 
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paulgyro

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Comparison of the two in the same graph, lightly more high-end in the 4367 from 5-9k but very slight. There is no way this was the primary difference I heard.
 

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Newman

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1. Proper level matching
2. Blind testing

Explained earlier. Five pages earlier.
 
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