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Headphone amp recommendations (HE-560 and HD6XX)

maverickronin

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I'm always fascinated about discussions of "hard to drive" headphones. Headphones only require, at worst, a few tens of mW to drive them to daft volume levels. This isn't difficult to acheive in any way to very low (amp) distortion levels.

The old Hifiman HE-6 is really the only "hard to drive" headphone I know of. Tyll's measurements put it at about 77dB/mW so 1.5W would get you up to about 109dB which is more or less front row symphony orchestra level.

Of course you then find plenty of people insisting they be used with straight up power amps instead...

The HE560 has a flat impedance i.e. does not change tonal balance from higher resistances.
For the HD6XX and HD58X the 10 Ohm is low enough to not change the tonal balance in an obvious way.

The impedance curve is dead flat so it won't change the FR, but the lower damping factor may effect bass performance. Some people say that planars are minimaly effected by electrical damping and others say it's audible. I haven't seen any good data on it either way, but if there's a budget for it, I'd recommend playing it safe. It's good future proofing as well in case OP wants something in the future which would mind the 10 ohms.
 

March Audio

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Wow, that really is in-sensitive.

109dB is actually what I would call dangerously loud (I am a qualified HS noise officer). The legislation on noise exposure time here in Oz means ( 85dB(A) for 8 hours a day) you could only be exposed to that for about 4 minutes without risk of permanent hearing damage.

I totally agree with you on impedance. Lowest z is always preferable. It's not a transmission line so there is no reason to seek high z. It only has the potential to cause issue.

Also as general comment magnetic planars (contrary to some things I have read) are an easy load. They are almost a purely resistive load typically 30 to 50 Ohms which makes life easy for an amp. Presuming of course the can doesn't have stupidly low sensitivity.
 
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solderdude

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The impedance curve is dead flat so it won't change the FR, but the lower damping factor may effect bass performance. Some people say that planars are minimaly effected by electrical damping and others say it's audible. I haven't seen any good data on it either way, but if there's a budget for it, I'd recommend playing it safe. It's good future proofing as well in case OP wants something in the future which would mind the 10 ohms.

I think the whole 'damping factor' thing is a marketting nonsense thingy.
Hmm now I feel compelled to explain my train of thoughts.

Electrical damping is done by current. The more current the more 'breaking' is going on. So it stands to reason that when a power source is short circuited the current is MUCH higher than when it sees a few Ohm or heaven forbid 120 Ohm or so.
Now here is the thing.
Let's assume the HD650 is used and we apply the '1/10th rule' we see everywhere.
An uncontroled motion of the membrane is what needs to be 'damped' by current apparantly.
That motion (that needs to be damped) generates a voltage by the voicecoil being in a magnetic field.
Lets assume that the internal resistance of that 'generator' (works as a dynamic mic. literally) that resistance is low, say 1 Ohm.
In this case the output current of that 'generator' is very high (thus greatly damped) when shorted by close to 0 Ohm.
The same generator will not be delivering much current in a 10 Ohm 'load' (the amps output R) and so little damping is going on any more.
That's the theory around the damping factor.
When you do some math here differences in currents (that does the actual damping) is HUGE... damping factor confirmed right ?
High damping current in low output R amp and poor damping on 10 Ohm output R amp.

One may have guessed it already... the source impedance, alas, of the 'generator' in the case of the HDX0 in this case is not close to 0 Ohm at all.
It's the DC resistance ... around 300 Ohm.
When one does the math and assumes the generated voltage is say 1V (for arguments sake) then the difference in damping current when connected to a 0 Ohm amp and 10 Ohm amp aren't big at all. 1/300 or 1/310 Amp in this case (3.3mA vs 3.2mA).
You guessed it... damping current differences of 3% won't be that audible.

What will become audible (raised bass) is the FR will be different because of voltage division and thus 'muddy' the bass.
The generated back EMF is what raises the impedance. Because the driver needs less current (at the same applied voltage) at the resonance frequency and the voltage remains the same the impedance rises.

The fact that some people 'report' hearing differences in orthos may well be caused by differences in loudness or from the usual source of conflicting reports (brain thingy).

At least the above is my theory untill proven otherwise.

I noticed John Siau dwells here (who has my greatest admiration) and has measured increased distortion when the output R is higher which appears to be the 'biggest' proof at the moment.
What my 'counter' theory here is ... voltage division again.
You have 0 Ohm source resistance and measure at the output of the device. All voltages there are solely coming from the amp. The headphone's generator is shorted so the induced current by the voicecoil won't become visible at all.
Add a 10 Ohm resistance INSIDE that amplifier box/device and things become different.
On the output the actual signal will appear (of course) but signals generated by the voicecoil that run through the voicecoil + output R thus will create a voltage across both the voicecoil and output R.
Since the output signal of an amp is measured as a black box with a 10 Ohm output R both the applied signal (from the amp) + the divided current (from the voicecoil + output R) will be present at the output of the amp measured.
As a distortion measurement is nothing more than measuring the difference between the input signal from the amp and the output signal minus the gain then it is logical one 'measures' a bigger difference when the output signal + attenuated back EMF from the driver is compared to the input signal.
This doesn't make the distortion that much higher, it only appears that way.

Don't know if my reasoning is valid but that's my take on output R and the 'damping factor' story from yesteryear that does not seem to go away.

Are people wrong with the 1/10th rule of thumb ?
Not entirely as most headphones are designed to be driven from a voltage source (low output R).
Some (certainly not all) headphones have varying impedances. For lower imp. headphones the end result (change in FR due to voltage division) is much worse than for higher imp. headphones due to the voltage division ratio changing.
So yes, some headphones (those with varying impedances) will show a huge change in tonal balance (bass mostly, unless they are MA or such) where other headphones, even dynamics not just planars, have no variance in tonal balance/impedance.

As the actual effect on tonal balance is complex to calculate in dB's for most I always make measurements (headphones) when driven from low output R and the (former standard) 120 Ohm output and compensate for the difference in output level (which can be huge) so tonal balance differences become obvious. Again... due to voltage division mostly but agree that for low impedance headphones (below say 50 Ohm) the damping current will also be of influence as that can easily halve or even less.

below the HD650 tonal balance change when fed through 0 Ohm and 120 Ohm. 10 Ohm would be closest to 0 Ohm.

hd650-new-pads-0-ohm-vs-120-ohm.png



So... best to keep the output R low in most cases (John S is right about this) but sometimes a higher output R has positive effects on the sound. Specifically those HP's that were designed while applying the old standard.
It's why my amp designs have selectable output R's in just 2 or 3 steps. So the owner is more 'flexible'.
 
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Wombat

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maverickronin

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109dB is actually what I would call dangerously loud

I agree with you on that one too.

Maybe if you listen to a lot of well recorded classical with very high dynamic range you might need that headroom for peaks. If you turned anything else up that loud it's going to be bad for your ears.
 
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Timbo2

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I'm always fascinated about discussions of "hard to drive" headphones. Headphones only require, at worst, a few tens of mW to drive them to daft volume levels. This isn't difficult to acheive in any way to very low (amp) distortion levels.

However what is required is an appropriate output voltage from the amp to suit the impedance of the cans. Generally higher impedance will need higher voltage.low output zshould always be sought.

I have an O2 Amp with 1x and 3.5x gain. Source is D10 at 2V as measured by Amir. My ancient Fluke 73 III measured 1.974V / 1.970V (each channel) on the D10 running a YouTube video of purported 1kHz sine wave.

With my 300 ohm Sennheiser HD600s I run in 1x gain 90% of the time so 2V or less. I run the 3.5x gain only on low source material. On loud source material (so closer to 2V) plugged into the wall the O2 outputs 7V at 3.5x gain. It's ridiculously, damage your hearing loud.

So at least for the Senns you don't need crazy amounts of power, but you do want something more than the 1.0V to 1.5V that many mass market portable players and phones output.
 
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Rod

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I have an O2 Amp with 1x and 3.5x gain. Source is D10 at 2V as measured by Amir. My ancient Fluke 73 III measured 1.974V / 1.970V (each channel) on the D10 running a YouTube video of purported 1kHz sine wave.

With my 300 ohm Sennheiser HD600s I run in 1x gain 90% of the time so 2V or less. I run the 3.5x gain only on low source material. On loud source material (so closer to 2V) plugged into the wall the O2 outputs 7V at 3.5x gain. It's ridiculously, damage your hearing loud.

So at least for the Senns you don't need crazy amounts of power, but you do want something more than the 1.0V to 1.5V that many mass market portable players and phones output.
I just take my headphones and plug them into the wall for 120 volt.
 

Rod

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Dont listen to me though. I always thought that having more watts and listening at normal loudness would be better for THD but I guess not. Headroom though I guess is cool to have so I was sorta right.
 

Timbo2

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Dont listen to me though. I always thought that having more watts and listening at normal loudness would be better for THD but I guess not. Headroom though I guess is cool to have so I was sorta right.

With an analog volume pot channel balance also becomes an issue. With the same O2 amp and my Shure SE535s IEMs I'm fortunate that I'm able to listen at a comfortable level with good channel balance at 1x gain. But I just barely make it.

I can adjust the volume in the digital domain to put the volume knob at the 50% mark if I want more control, but it's one more thing to do and set back on my HTPC so I usually don't bother.

So too much power can also be problematic.
 

Dro

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109dB is actually what I would call dangerously loud (I am a qualified HS noise officer). The legislation on noise exposure time here in Oz means ( 85dB(A) for 8 hours a day) you could only be exposed to that for about 4 minutes without risk of permanent hearing damage.
You certainly don't want to listen at 109 dB(A). But you do want your amplifier to hit a voltage in that region. You don't listen to a 1 kHz sine wave, but a signal with varying frequency content and amplitude. And to properly reproduce that signal at an average, weighted level of 85 to 90 dB(A), your amplifier may need to be able to reach an unweighted peak level of 105 to 110 dB(Z). Most likely this peak will be caused by bass, which is why it barely affects A-weighted levels, even short term measured. And, assuming a flat frequency response, the voltage to reach 110dB(A) at 1 kHz is the same you need to reproduce 110 dB(Z) at 40 Hz.

I just did a test and roughly applied A-weighting via EQ to a contemporary, but not loudness-wared, piece of rock music. It sounds punchy and gets very close to 0 dBFS in its peaks. After EQ, the short-term RMS of this song fluctuates around -18 dBFS. So requiring your amplifier to reach around 110 dB(Z) seems pretty sane.
 

March Audio

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You certainly don't want to listen at 109 dB(A). But you do want your amplifier to hit a voltage in that region. You don't listen to a 1 kHz sine wave, but a signal with varying frequency content and amplitude. And to properly reproduce that signal at an average, weighted level of 85 to 90 dB(A), your amplifier may need to be able to reach an unweighted peak level of 105 to 110 dB(Z). Most likely this peak will be caused by bass, which is why it barely affects A-weighted levels, even short term measured. And, assuming a flat frequency response, the voltage to reach 110dB(A) at 1 kHz is the same you need to reproduce 110 dB(Z) at 40 Hz.

I just did a test and roughly applied A-weighting via EQ to a contemporary, but not loudness-wared, piece of rock music. It sounds punchy and gets very close to 0 dBFS in its peaks. After EQ, the short-term RMS of this song fluctuates around -18 dBFS. So requiring your amplifier to reach around 110 dB(Z) seems pretty sane.
Yes I have no issue with peak transients of 110dB(A) and you are correct we should always use the correct weighting. In terms of hearing protection it is very relevant along with the integration time of the measurement.

The context of the lead up was high power levels (1.5 W) which imply RMS not peak.
 

solderdude

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I have come across the following thing quite often.
You start to listen at a low level. You hear a great song and turn it up.
You get used to it (louder level) and listen some more.
Even greater song... or more dynamic one...
You play a little louder.
Then stop for a while and leave everything in the same position.
After a day or so you start listening again... maaaannn that is loud and you dial back.

Also a 300 Ohm headphone needs a MUCH higher voltage than a low impedance and sensitive headphone.
When you own both and do want pristine sound listening to capable orthos without a hint of distortion or a HD800 or something you may need an amp that provides a LOT of voltage. Not so with your IEM on your phone.
 

PuX

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since recommendations are hard to make, what are the available options for high impedance headphones?

JDS Labs O2 and El AMP are obvious ones. can't really find any measurements for El AMP though.

any idea on how good the less obvious ones are? i.e. Massdrop Cavalli CTH and Liquid Carbon?

any alternatives from traditional hi-fi brands that still have a reasonable price?
 

solderdude

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Look in the specs (when given/available)
In general 5V RMS (around 100mW) at 300 Ohm will cover most people.
This is NOT the same as 100mW into 32 or 16 Ohm.
Same power level, most likely around the same 'loudness' but a very different voltage.
So a 200mW spec'd amp in say 16 Ohm will be able to deliver merely 10mW in 300 Ohm (maybe slightly more)
Output resistances up to 10 Ohm are not an issue.

This will give peak levels of near 120dB.
When listening to classic music or high DR recordings this means you can listen at 90dB to 100dB average SPL.
A weighted SPL meter may give lower readings between 80 and 90dB or so in that case.

Plenty amps can reach 5V, phones, tablets and small low power amps won't. These are not designed to drive high imp. cans.
 
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I think the whole 'damping factor' thing is a marketting nonsense thingy.
Hmm now I feel compelled to explain my train of thoughts.

Electrical damping is done by current. The more current the more 'breaking' is going on. So it stands to reason that when a power source is short circuited the current is MUCH higher than when it sees a few Ohm or heaven forbid 120 Ohm or so.
Now here is the thing.
Let's assume the HD650 is used and we apply the '1/10th rule' we see everywhere.
An uncontroled motion of the membrane is what needs to be 'damped' by current apparantly.
That motion (that needs to be damped) generates a voltage by the voicecoil being in a magnetic field.
Lets assume that the internal resistance of that 'generator' (works as a dynamic mic. literally) that resistance is low, say 1 Ohm.
In this case the output current of that 'generator' is very high (thus greatly damped) when shorted by close to 0 Ohm.
The same generator will not be delivering much current in a 10 Ohm 'load' (the amps output R) and so little damping is going on any more.
That's the theory around the damping factor.
When you do some math here differences in currents (that does the actual damping) is HUGE... damping factor confirmed right ?
High damping current in low output R amp and poor damping on 10 Ohm output R amp.

One may have guessed it already... the source impedance, alas, of the 'generator' in the case of the HDX0 in this case is not close to 0 Ohm at all.
It's the DC resistance ... around 300 Ohm.
When one does the math and assumes the generated voltage is say 1V (for arguments sake) then the difference in damping current when connected to a 0 Ohm amp and 10 Ohm amp aren't big at all. 1/300 or 1/310 Amp in this case (3.3mA vs 3.2mA).
You guessed it... damping current differences of 3% won't be that audible.

What will become audible (raised bass) is the FR will be different because of voltage division and thus 'muddy' the bass.
The generated back EMF is what raises the impedance. Because the driver needs less current (at the same applied voltage) at the resonance frequency and the voltage remains the same the impedance rises.

The fact that some people 'report' hearing differences in orthos may well be caused by differences in loudness or from the usual source of conflicting reports (brain thingy).

At least the above is my theory untill proven otherwise.

I noticed John Siau dwells here (who has my greatest admiration) and has measured increased distortion when the output R is higher which appears to be the 'biggest' proof at the moment.
What my 'counter' theory here is ... voltage division again.
You have 0 Ohm source resistance and measure at the output of the device. All voltages there are solely coming from the amp. The headphone's generator is shorted so the induced current by the voicecoil won't become visible at all.
Add a 10 Ohm resistance INSIDE that amplifier box/device and things become different.
On the output the actual signal will appear (of course) but signals generated by the voicecoil that run through the voicecoil + output R thus will create a voltage across both the voicecoil and output R.
Since the output signal of an amp is measured as a black box with a 10 Ohm output R both the applied signal (from the amp) + the divided current (from the voicecoil + output R) will be present at the output of the amp measured.
As a distortion measurement is nothing more than measuring the difference between the input signal from the amp and the output signal minus the gain then it is logical one 'measures' a bigger difference when the output signal + attenuated back EMF from the driver is compared to the input signal.
This doesn't make the distortion that much higher, it only appears that way.

Don't know if my reasoning is valid but that's my take on output R and the 'damping factor' story from yesteryear that does not seem to go away.

Are people wrong with the 1/10th rule of thumb ?
Not entirely as most headphones are designed to be driven from a voltage source (low output R).
Some (certainly not all) headphones have varying impedances. For lower imp. headphones the end result (change in FR due to voltage division) is much worse than for higher imp. headphones due to the voltage division ratio changing.
So yes, some headphones (those with varying impedances) will show a huge change in tonal balance (bass mostly, unless they are MA or such) where other headphones, even dynamics not just planars, have no variance in tonal balance/impedance.

As the actual effect on tonal balance is complex to calculate in dB's for most I always make measurements (headphones) when driven from low output R and the (former standard) 120 Ohm output and compensate for the difference in output level (which can be huge) so tonal balance differences become obvious. Again... due to voltage division mostly but agree that for low impedance headphones (below say 50 Ohm) the damping current will also be of influence as that can easily halve or even less.

below the HD650 tonal balance change when fed through 0 Ohm and 120 Ohm. 10 Ohm would be closest to 0 Ohm.

hd650-new-pads-0-ohm-vs-120-ohm.png



So... best to keep the output R low in most cases (John S is right about this) but sometimes a higher output R has positive effects on the sound. Specifically those HP's that were designed while applying the old standard.
It's why my amp designs have selectable output R's in just 2 or 3 steps. So the owner is more 'flexible'.


This very interesting stuff, if I am understanding this right, does this mean it would be beneficial to put a headphone on a super powerful amplifier to get more current, even if you are not actually turning up the volume of the amp a lot?

I am curious about this as I recently bought a Burson Fun amplifier which outputs 2.1 watts at 32 ohms (not sure about the current as it not listed but I assume its quite high) and I have been very impressed with it. It with my T60RP is the cleanest and clearest sounding setup I have ever used. I wonder if the extra current giving a high damping factor could be the reason it sounds so clean to me.

Someone on Headfi was mentioning this kind of thing as well, claiming that the T60RP sounded its best connected to a 50W speaker amp to achieve massive dampening factor. I wonder if that really can make a difference.
 
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I have the HD-650s.

Some have recommended the A-100 as a good match to the HD (600/650/660/6XX). Also an older crown amp like the D-75 has plenty of power for both models. For portable use with a dac, the well-reviewed Topping NX4 DSD is on my short list and may just be good enough for desktop use, too. More expensive price-point would be something like the MicroZOTL or HP-1. In my main system, I have a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC. The headphone stage on that powers my HD650s with ease. Although my Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 powers them OK (at 85-90% volume) as does my SMSL IQ.
 

solderdude

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This very interesting stuff, if I am understanding this right, does this mean it would be beneficial to put a headphone on a super powerful amplifier to get more current, even if you are not actually turning up the volume of the amp a lot?

I am curious about this as I recently bought a Burson Fun amplifier which outputs 2.1 watts at 32 ohms (not sure about the current as it not listed but I assume its quite high) and I have been very impressed with it. It with my T60RP is the cleanest and clearest sounding setup I have ever used. I wonder if the extra current giving a high damping factor could be the reason it sounds so clean to me.

Someone on Headfi was mentioning this kind of thing as well, claiming that the T60RP sounded its best connected to a 50W speaker amp to achieve massive dampening factor. I wonder if that really can make a difference.

Current is determined by the applied voltage and the impedance.
An amplifier does not deliver 'current' (with the exception of the Bakoon and alikes) but delivers a voltage.

The maximum voltage swing of power amplifiers is usually higher than that of most headphone amps (depends on power rating of course)
Most (if not all) headphone amps do have a current limit though as well as a voltage limit.
Power amplifiers usually have a (much) higher output noise level and are capable of destroying low impedance headphones when accidentally turned up. This means audible background noise may be present when using speaker amps directly on low impedance headphones.

The T60RP is an orthodynamic planar headphone and is NOT damped electrically at all so damping factor is not an issue.
These headphones need quite a lot of voltage (and current) to be driven loudly.
92dB/mW @ 50 Ohm = 105dB/V and rated 3W.
That last spec says little. Music peaks of 3W is not the same as 3W continuous power.

The Burson can provide around 9V into 50 Ohm = 1.6W output R = 6 Ohm DF= 8.3 current draw = max 180mA
a 50W amp (assumed in 8 Ohm) = 20V = into 50 Ohm = 8W output R= 0.1 Ohm ? DF= 500
a 50W amp (assumed in 4 Ohm) = 14V = 4W output R= 0.1 Ohm ? DF=500

Damping Factor is a non issue, even at 8.3

It's all about the ability to reach peak levels without compression (clipping).
At a max. peak voltage of 9Vrms the undistorted peaks can reach 124dB (pain threshold) which would be reached with a DR of 15 with average levels of 110dB which is uncomfortably LOUD.
In practice you will not reach these levels, well maybe when very shortly turning it up to see how it fares loudly.
I see no point in applying more power to it.

So the FUN will no doubt drive it fine even with its poor DF (which is a non issue).

The fact that a certain person reports it sounds even better directly from amp X or Z is unfounded subjective BS to me. An opinion rather than a fact.
It will sound better than when driven directly from a phone or small amplifier though.


A HD650 does not need much power and is rather efficient with its 100 dB/1mW (104dB/1V)
It just needs a higher voltage which power amps can deliver in spades.
Even at it's max. rating (0.5W) about 12V is needed but only 40mA is drawn at which point it delivers about 125dB SPL
You can do that with any opamp on a +/- 18V rails
 

Timbo2

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A HD650 does not need much power and is rather efficient with its 100 dB/1mW (104dB/1V)
It just needs a higher voltage which power amps can deliver in spades.
Even at it's max. rating (0.5W) about 12V is needed but only 40mA is drawn at which point it delivers about 125dB SPL
You can do that with any opamp on a +/- 18V rails

I use an O2 amp with a 2V source and 3.5x gain for around 7V (also where the O2 is max rated) and it drives my HD 6XXs to painful levels even with soft sources.

My opinion is anything over 5V should be plenty. Most of my listening is done at 1x gain at 50% to 75% volume so under 2V.
 
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