staticV3
Master Contributor
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?
Are you looking for the CEA-2010 values of an alternative subwoofer, or for alternative subwoofer measurement data to CEA-2010?
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Harbottle Audio Subwoofers?
- Thread starter sarumbear
- Start date
Are you looking for the CEA-2010 values of an alternative subwoofer, or for alternative subwoofer measurement data to CEA-2010?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
Please read the thread subject, then read the post where the Monolith 16 subwoofer is suggested that I should consider. Neither are in those lists.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Your find is much prettier
If I was going for something that's both pretty and has crazy excursion, my choise at the moment would be the Paradigm XR13 *drool*.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #24
Are you comparing a 11 or 13” subwoofer to a 18” one?
Besides, any company that talks this dribble is a no-go for me.
In other words Xmax is 10cm!
Paradigm Launches XR11 and XR13 Subwoofers for 2023
The all-new XR subwoofers are a master class in design and engineering refinement that challenges what is possible from a compact, sealed subwoofer design.
pulsecinemas.com
Aren’t they as expensive as what @sarumbear found? I think I’d go for that then we’re I in the market and had the budget. My guess it they will have better performance. 13” vs 18”… you know who wins that contest
staticV3
Master Contributor
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The Monolith 16" is in the spreadsheet:
The Harbottle isn't because neither does the manufacturer provide CEA-2010 data themselves, nor do they seem interested in providing review samples to the objective review crowd.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #27
Not in sealed form, hence not comparable.
nerdoldnerdith
Senior Member
I own Harbottle subwoofers and Funk Audio subwoofers. They are sister companies. In my opinion these companies represent the state of the art in home audio subwoofer design. I have owned subwoofers from SVS, Rythmik, Rel, JL Audio, Power Sound Audio, and JTR. I have heard just about everything including Perlisten and other expensive manufacturers. Funk Audio and Harbottle are the best I've heard by far.
CEA-2010 is a very simplistic approach to measuring subwoofer performance. It basically just tells you how loud a subwoofer can get within a threshold of very liberal harmonic distortion limits. At the levels of distortion CEA allows playback can be very dirty and audibly distorted. It also says nothing about how well a subwoofer performs within those limits in terms of linearity, compression, other forms of distortion, etc. All of these things are audible and affect subwoofer performance.
Take JTR for example. Their subwoofers have a lot of output as per CEA. When you poke around and look at the data, however, you can see heavy compression occurring at playback levels well below these CEA numbers. This is very much audible and lends itself to the "sound signature" that JTR subwoofers have.
Funk Audio and Harbottle subwoofers are designed to satisfy a very strict set of criteria within their performance envelope. They use huge powerful neodymium motors with underhung oversized voice coils and carefully tuned suspensions so that their output at full power of thousands of watts still has inaudible distortion and vanishly low, inaudible, and very controlled compression. This means that when you look at the numbers at which they rate their subwoofers for max output you are looking at numbers at which the subwoofer performs cleanly and linearly. Most subwoofers lose linearity at significantly lower levels where they go into compression that causes ugly and audible nonharmonic distortion at high levels.
Basically every subwoofer on the market uses an overhung motor design. It's the obvious choice when you want to maximize output relative to cost. Most use ferrite motors as well, since it is a cheaper material to use to get magnetic field strength. They also use smaller 2-3" voice coils, which are lighter and more efficient but have low power handling.
Funk Audio and Harbottle use underhung motors with neodymium magnets and massive 5" voice coils. Designing subwoofers this way is wasteful if the goal is output per dollar, but they are designed with a different goal in mind, namely linearity and accuracy. The end result when you get them dialed in is bass that sounds perfect in every way.
CEA-2010 is a very simplistic approach to measuring subwoofer performance. It basically just tells you how loud a subwoofer can get within a threshold of very liberal harmonic distortion limits. At the levels of distortion CEA allows playback can be very dirty and audibly distorted. It also says nothing about how well a subwoofer performs within those limits in terms of linearity, compression, other forms of distortion, etc. All of these things are audible and affect subwoofer performance.
Take JTR for example. Their subwoofers have a lot of output as per CEA. When you poke around and look at the data, however, you can see heavy compression occurring at playback levels well below these CEA numbers. This is very much audible and lends itself to the "sound signature" that JTR subwoofers have.
Funk Audio and Harbottle subwoofers are designed to satisfy a very strict set of criteria within their performance envelope. They use huge powerful neodymium motors with underhung oversized voice coils and carefully tuned suspensions so that their output at full power of thousands of watts still has inaudible distortion and vanishly low, inaudible, and very controlled compression. This means that when you look at the numbers at which they rate their subwoofers for max output you are looking at numbers at which the subwoofer performs cleanly and linearly. Most subwoofers lose linearity at significantly lower levels where they go into compression that causes ugly and audible nonharmonic distortion at high levels.
Basically every subwoofer on the market uses an overhung motor design. It's the obvious choice when you want to maximize output relative to cost. Most use ferrite motors as well, since it is a cheaper material to use to get magnetic field strength. They also use smaller 2-3" voice coils, which are lighter and more efficient but have low power handling.
Funk Audio and Harbottle use underhung motors with neodymium magnets and massive 5" voice coils. Designing subwoofers this way is wasteful if the goal is output per dollar, but they are designed with a different goal in mind, namely linearity and accuracy. The end result when you get them dialed in is bass that sounds perfect in every way.
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Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Yes? I never said that the 13" sub was superior to the 18" one. Only that I find it alluring for what it is.
Fair enough.
I know. They actually mention those 10cm in the spec sheet, but you have to dig a little to find it. It's dumb. I agree.
Yes? He didn't mention a preference for cheaper alternatives?
13” vs 18”… you know who wins that contest
Depends on the goal of the contest. Uncompromised bass: The Harbottle wins. Snooty looks and "small" size: The Paradigm wins.
Harbottle (Cody) has said elsewhere he would welcome a good third party review. Unlike other companies that flat out refuse to send their gear out for review, Cody does support it. Now getting one to a reviewer and what that would take? That I cannot answer.
Also, while CEA-2010 does show distortion, this is on a cold driver and does not represent real world usage of a Sub. I think it is still an important measurement, but it only shows a portion of the overall picture.
@sarumbear , I think the closest thing you will find right now are the write-ups Ricci did on the 2 models of Ridge Drivers as well as the measurements of the Funk Subwoofer featuring what is effectively a Harbottle M118 Driver...
(from the Harbottle site):
My experience talking to Cody yesterday is that he is not interested in making the Sales Pitch to prospective customers. I never once felt like I need to order on his group buy at any time during our almost 2-hr conversation. What I did get is more education about his process and why he does what he does.
I'm currently sitting on some Subwoofer Drivers from a competitor that don't measure to spec. (What?! Than never happens, does it? ) This is why I'm looking at the Drivers on the group buy. Is it a risk? Sure. So was buying from the company I already bought from. So is taking PSA and GSG at their word alone that their solutions with Pro Drivers are delivering.
With most of these, the goal is "he with the most Bass wins."
I don't need the most Bass. What I want is the cleanest Bass. This is the foundation. If your foundation isn't stable, nothing else you build above matters.
Also, while CEA-2010 does show distortion, this is on a cold driver and does not represent real world usage of a Sub. I think it is still an important measurement, but it only shows a portion of the overall picture.
@sarumbear , I think the closest thing you will find right now are the write-ups Ricci did on the 2 models of Ridge Drivers as well as the measurements of the Funk Subwoofer featuring what is effectively a Harbottle M118 Driver...
(from the Harbottle site):
My experience talking to Cody yesterday is that he is not interested in making the Sales Pitch to prospective customers. I never once felt like I need to order on his group buy at any time during our almost 2-hr conversation. What I did get is more education about his process and why he does what he does.
I'm currently sitting on some Subwoofer Drivers from a competitor that don't measure to spec. (What?! Than never happens, does it?
) This is why I'm looking at the Drivers on the group buy. Is it a risk? Sure. So was buying from the company I already bought from. So is taking PSA and GSG at their word alone that their solutions with Pro Drivers are delivering.With most of these, the goal is "he with the most Bass wins."
I don't need the most Bass. What I want is the cleanest Bass. This is the foundation. If your foundation isn't stable, nothing else you build above matters.
For my “endgame” system i am, also looking at some subs to add to the mains. Never heard of Harbottle (though I am aware of Funk), so this is great timing, will definitely check them out!
And if any interest in dipole subs, I have read the GRs are very good, and ones I am also considering …
gr-research.com
And if any interest in dipole subs, I have read the GRs are very good, and ones I am also considering …
SUB-Series | GR-Research
gr-research.com
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
Wow! Just wow…
Elite - System
Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!
www.funkaudio.ca
Yeah, I saw that bad boy, incredible, and WAY over my budgetWow! Just wow…
Elite - System
Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!www.funkaudio.ca
I've seen it joked that you need your own power plant to run Funk Subs.Wow! Just wow…
Elite - System
Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!www.funkaudio.ca
Yeah, that’s nearly 95A from your socket at full powerI've seen it joked that you need your own power plant to run Funk Subs.
(or double for our American brethren)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #37
Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
How can anyone trust a company who declares a spec like 12kW RMS? That’s 220V at 55A, or 6 cooker ovens…
| Power (RMS) | 12000 W |
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It’s true:Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
data-bass.com
How can anyone trust a company who declares a spec like 12kW RMS? That’s 220V and 55A, or 6 cooker ovens…
Power (RMS) 12000 W
End of Life Products – K10 - Powersoft
www.powersoft.com
But what are you complaining about, that Funk sub does double of this figure.
Funk is putting car audio power in your home!! I knew a guy who put a Massive Audio XL sub in his home theater powered by a car amplifier. It worked.. Much cheaper than what you can buy a complete sub of comparable power and output.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #40
Digital amplifiers have 95% efficiency. Maximum heat generated will be 600W. On the other hand an electrodynamic driver has at best 5% efficiency. That means the driver motor assembly must absorb at least 11.5kW heat. That’s enough to heat a house!It’s true:
End of Life Products – K10 - Powersoft
But what are you complaining about, that Funk sub does double of this figure.
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