Golden days of AKM is gone

[bennetng]

Funny you should mention that, as the main stereo output DAC on the Clarett 8Pre/8PreX is.... Cirrus Logic CS4398.

I bought an E-MU 1212M a long time ago, moved to an 0404 USB, and finally bought a Focusrite Clarett 8PreX last year. Guess it's like a return home.

I find it interesting that so many audio interface and electronics manufacturers elect to go with Cirrus Logic chips (Focusrite, Apple, Avid, et al), while they seem to be virtually ignored by DAC manufacturers in favor of ESS and AKM chips. Analog Devices seem to be in hiding too after seeing quite a bit of use in Benchmark and Lavry DACs, IIRC.

It seems that some Motu and Apogee interfaces use ESS chips.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Tracker Pre and 0202 USB are different products. I talked about 0202USB.

Fair enough Weird that they put two different products with exactly the same features in exactly the same case.

 

[bennetng]

Fair enough Weird that they put two different products with exactly the same features in exactly the same case.

https://creative.com/emu/corporate/dealer/files/E-MU0204USB/0204 Review Guide.pdf
Creative is very serious about RMAA measurements, they even provide step-by-step measurement guides for reviewers.

The tracker-pre when using the optimal settings shows loopback results like this:
http://prosound.ixbt.com/hardsoft/emu/tracker-pre/2444.shtml

 

[andreasmaaan]

The tracker-pre when using the optimal settings shows loopback results like this:
http://prosound.ixbt.com/hardsoft/emu/tracker-pre/2444.shtml

Weird that they released a product in exactly the same case as the 0202, same features, worse performance, double the price (and at $200 much more expensive than the 2i2). Any explanation you know of?

https://creative.com/emu/corporate/dealer/files/E-MU0204USB/0204 Review Guide.pdf
Creative is very serious about RMAA measurements, they even provide step-by-step measurement guides for reviewers.

I was going to ask before, why are you so serious about RMAA specifically (as opposed to other test procedures)?

 

[bennetng]

Weird that they released a product in exactly the same case as the 0202, same features, worse performance, double the price (and at $200 much more expensive than the 2i2). Any explanation you know of?

Which product you are talking about?
https://www.juno.co.uk/products/e-mu-e-mu-tracker-pre/384271-01/
http://prosound.ixbt.com/hardsoft/emu/tracker-pre/2444.shtml
Tracker pre is also a $100-120 product, as you can see the results are superior to 2i2, so?

I was going to ask before, why are you so serious about RMAA specifically (as opposed to other test procedures)?

1. A lot of people use it, easy to gather results from different users.

2. When in doubt, it is easy to ask other users to upload the audio files, or give instructions to them. Example:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111411.0.html

3. RMAA follow AES17 standard, Focusrite, for example, use the same standard as well. See this article to see how RMAA follows the standard.
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/creative-audigy2-zs/index-p2.html

4. When the tests are correctly executed, the results are not too far from the published specs, example:

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/adi_2-pro.php#7
http://prosound.ixbt.com/interfaces/rme/adi2pro/battery/+24.shtml

https://focusrite.com/usb-c-audio-interface/clarett-usb/clarett-4pre-usb#specs
http://prosound.ixbt.com/interfaces/focusrite/clarett/2444.shtml

 

[andreasmaaan]

Tracker pre is also a $100-120 product, as you can see the results are superior to 2i2, so?

Well that link is in Euro, and many years after the unit went out of production. We were comparing US prices before, and RRP for it was US$200, ie double what you said the 0202 cost, although it seems it could be bought for $150.

But whatever the price difference, the point is that it’s an otherwise identical product - right down to the case - that costs a lot more yet performs worse. Quite bizarre, no?

Your explanation makes sense re RMAA. Most rigs conform to AES17, but I guess the Rightmark ticks a lot of other boxes in terms of affordability/performance ratio etc. And the user interaction/ability to cross-check between users is a nice feature

 

[bennetng]

that costs a lot more yet performs worse. Quite bizarre, no?

Please see the test conditions clearly. Don't confuse me and yourself again.

0202 USB non-loopback measurements, evaluated by 1616m:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/golden-days-of-akm-is-gone.5597/post-126297

0204 USB loopback measurements from Creative:
https://creative.com/emu/corporate/dealer/files/E-MU0204USB/0204 Review Guide.pdf

Tracker pre loopback measurements:
http://prosound.ixbt.com/hardsoft/emu/tracker-pre/2444.shtml

But whatever the price difference, the point is that it’s an otherwise identical product - right down to the case

You should do more research, they are not the same.

0202 USB:

Tracker pre:

 

[andymok]

TOTL DAC chips are overkill. A well implemented mid tier chip is plenty transparent. I think the pro companies understand this.



This is news to me. Do you have a source please?

TOTL DAC is still important because you have so many of them in the entire signal chain, if you're mixing in the box. They are everywhere, console, speakers, interfaces, converters...

 

[andreasmaaan]

Please see the test conditions clearly. Don't confuse me and yourself again.

0202 USB non-loopback measurements, evaluated by 1616m:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/golden-days-of-akm-is-gone.5597/post-126297

0204 USB loopback measurements from Creative:
https://creative.com/emu/corporate/dealer/files/E-MU0204USB/0204 Review Guide.pdf

Tracker pre loopback measurements:
http://prosound.ixbt.com/hardsoft/emu/tracker-pre/2444.shtml


You should do more research, they are not the same.

0202 USB:
View attachment 18804


Tracker pre:
View attachment 18805

Maybe you could have said this before you made a mistaken claim about the price? I think we both could have done more research here...

Anyway, it turns out that the Tracker Pre has basically the same feature set as the 2i2, with basically the same measured performance other than better SNR, and costing around 15% more (or more if we look at only the RRPs). In other words, the price/performance ratio is about the same. Let's both be happy with that, perhaps?

 

[bennetng]

Maybe you could have said this before you made a mistaken claim about the price? I think we both could have done more research here...

Yeah, but just remember apart from similar THD (without N) with the 2i2, other metrics are better than the 2i2. In case of functionalities, just visit Focusrite's website.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yeah, but just remember apart from similar THD (without N) with the 2i2, other metrics are better than the 2i2. In case of functionalities, just visit Focusrite's website.

I'm happy to leave it there

(PS I think you posted just around the same time I edited my post above FWIW.)

Anyway I'm sorry this degenerated into the squabble it did. I agree with you that the EMU 1212M had pretty remarkable performance/price, and that there doesn't seem to be anything quite in that category with that stripped-back feature set from another manufacturer on the market currently. Which was your original point.

The explanation perhaps being that nobody is going to sell many PCI cards these days, and that cases and other costs associated with standalone units push costs up too high - what do you think?

Anyway, I regret getting involved tbh. All the best

 

[bennetng]

The explanation perhaps being that nobody is going to sell many PCI cards these days, and that cases and other costs associated with standalone units push costs up too high - what do you think?

Some of my opinions and guesses:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-asus-stx-ii-pci-sound-card.4915/post-110150

 

[artismo]

I do music production, albeit I’m an amateur and do it as a hobby, but I own the Focusrite 2i2 2nd generation. Considering the discussion (not measuring as well as xxx) and its features (TRS balanced out, 1 weak headphone out, and no RCA outputs), are the quoted measurements from reliable sources? I’m going to pick through them and see what I can dig up now. I haven’t seen Amir test it, but I’m willing to mail mine in to him for measurements.

Also, I have a THX AAA 789 on the way (Amir recommended it or the Atom, but I decided to spring more cash for more power) and planned on using RCAs to connect it to my Topping D30, OR using a TRS to balanced XLR to connect it to my 2i2.

I currently use the TRS out to my LSR305s and probably need to consider an audio interface or DAC with more balanced outputs.

But, is there any audible difference with either the Topping or 2i2? Is there any meaningful difference?

Are there any better budget-ish audio interfaces out there? I bought the 2i2 when I knew nothing about audio.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I do music production, albeit I’m an amateur and do it as a hobby, but I own the Focusrite 2i2 2nd generation. Considering the discussion (not measuring as well as xxx) and its features (TRS balanced out, 1 weak headphone out, and no RCA outputs), are the quoted measurements from reliable sources? I’m going to pick through them and see what I can dig up now. I haven’t seen Amir test it, but I’m willing to mail mine in to him for measurements.

The quoted measurements are from DIY sources. Taken as a whole, I think they can be relied upon, as there is reasonable consistency between them. It would be great though if you could send it in to Amir, I'd be interested to see how it measures on his rig

But, is there any audible difference with either the Topping or 2i2? Is there any meaningful difference?

Given that nobody in the history of audio has ever demonstrated an ability to distortion below -90dB, I don't think there could be any audible difference between the D30 and the 2i2 (as long as you don't have them set on a weird gain structure, in which case the noise might become audible). So my view is that both units perform well enough to be transparent.

Are there any better budget-ish audio interfaces out there? I bought the 2i2 when I knew nothing about audio.

For $130, there are a few dedicated DACs that measure slightly better than the 2i2, although if you're looking at interfaces with similar feature sets, I don't think there's anything in that price range that is meaningfully better. If I were you I would probably stick with it.

*Edited slightly to hopefully be a bit clearer..

 

[rajapruk]

My 2i2 1gen had very hearable crosstalk.

 

[andreasmaaan]

My 2i2 1gen had very hearable crosstalk.

Yes, I'd forgotten to take into account the crosstalk aspect. This is an area where other units do perform better.

Under what circumstances was it audible for you?

 

[rajapruk]

First I noticed it when measuring my speakers. I had connected something wrong, but still got some sound out!

Investigating more:
Turning of my left JBL LSR305, and then muting the right channel in the computer. Then hearing the L channel playing out of the R speaker. Weakly, but there.

 

[Gradius]

Sorry for the UP... but the topic was about AKM and you guys went into gears of the past (EMU, Cirrus, etc). da f* ?

 

[infinitesymphony]

Sorry for the UP... but the topic was about AKM and you guys went into gears of the past (EMU, Cirrus, etc). da f* ?

We were talking about the days when AKM chips used to show up more often in gear, i.e. "Golden days of AKM is gone." Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this topic?

 

[Gradius]

We were talking about the days when AKM chips used to show up more often in gear, i.e. "Golden days of AKM is gone." Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this topic?

By that topic it supposed to be more oriented about AKM chips.

Expensives DACs continues to coming out, so I don't believe the "golden days" are really over, on the contrary (IMHO).

Take for example the AK4499EQ, is just 8 months old. Developing new DAC ICs costs a lot nowdays (R&D) as it got complex enough for that, so don't think you will see a new one soon.