Golden days of AKM is gone

[andreasmaaan]

http://borisgermanov.blogspot.com/2014/03/focusrite-scarlett-2i4-rmaa-test-report.html
https://focusrite.com/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i2#specs
http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?pid=19169

All that tells me is that the EMU is "optimistically" spec'd compared to what one set of independent measurements shows.

And the measurements you've linked are for the Focusrite 2i4, not the 2i2.

 

[bennetng]

All that tells me is that the EMU is "optimistically" spec'd compared to what one set of independent measurements shows.

And the measurements you've linked are for the Focusrite 2i4, not the 2i2.

I only talked about measured performance, 13dB of dynamic range and 30dB of crosstalk differences are not small. You may look at this thread as well. Also, 2i2 and 2i4 have same official specs.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1100594-usb-interface-very-low-noise-floor.html

Even combining the best measurements in different slots 1212m still beats 2i2 or 4.
http://borisgermanov.blogspot.com/2014/03/focusrite-scarlett-2i4-rmaa-test-report.html

Most 1212m measurements show similar results.
https://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~r89004/rmaa52/1212m-24-48.htm
https://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~r89004/rmaa52/1212m-24-96.htm
http://prosound.ixbt.com/hardsoft/emu/1212m/E-MU 1212m96.htm

 

[andreasmaaan]

I only talked about measured performance, 13dB of dynamic range and 30dB of crosstalk differences are not small. You may look at this thread as well. Also, 2i2 and 2i4 have same official specs.

I don't have enough invested in this to get into an argument over it

Where are you getting those figures for dynamic range and crosstalk? Measurements or manufacturer specs?

Looking at the measurements I posted, we see very similar levels of THD+N (just under 0.001% in both cases) and IMD.

Also, 2i2 and 2i4 have same official specs.

I'm not looking at spec sheets, just measurements.

 

[bennetng]

I don't have enough invested in this to get into an argument over it

Where are you getting those figures for dynamic range and crosstalk? Measurements or manufacturer specs?

Looking at the measurements I posted, we see very similar levels of THD+N (just under 0.001% in both cases) and IMD.



I'm not looking at spec sheets, just measurements.

https://focusrite.com/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i2#specs
https://focusrite.com/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i4#specs
http://borisgermanov.blogspot.com/2014/03/focusrite-scarlett-2i4-rmaa-test-report.html
The RMAA measured dynamic range is pretty close to the official specs right? It's not argue, just fact, and 1212m's measured loopback THD is about 2 times better than the 2i4 (0.0005-0.0009 in 1212m vs 0.0017 in 2i4's best case).

 

[andreasmaaan]

https://focusrite.com/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i2#specs
https://focusrite.com/usb-audio-interface/scarlett/scarlett-2i4#specs
http://borisgermanov.blogspot.com/2014/03/focusrite-scarlett-2i4-rmaa-test-report.html
The RMAA measured dynamic range is pretty close to the official specs right? It's not argue, just fact, and 1212m's measured loopback THD is about 2 times better than the 2i4 (0.0007-0.0009 in 1212m vs 0.0017 in 2i4's best case).

That's the 2i4 again, not the 2i2.

Look at the measurements I posted earlier of the 2i2. All measured parameters give results roughly equivalent to measured parameters of the EMU.

Unfortunately we don't have measurements of the 2i2 and the EMU from the same measurement rig to easily settle the question.

Anyway, both units are well below any experimentally derived audibility thresholds for noise and distortion, which is good enough for me.

 

[bennetng]

That's the 2i4 again, not the 2i2.

This? How do you translate these measurements to RMAA? Not apple to apple comparison.
https://johnr.hifizine.com/2012/09/focusrite-scarlett-2i2-measurements/

To reiterate, 2i2 and 2i4 have same official specs on Focusrite's official homepage, if they actually have different performances then Focusrite is not a honest company, do you want to accuse them of it? Actually the RMAA measurements are pretty similar to their published specs.

 

[andreasmaaan]

This? How do you translate these measurements to RMAA? Not apple to apple comparison.
https://johnr.hifizine.com/2012/09/focusrite-scarlett-2i2-measurements/

To reiterate, 2i2 and 2i4 have same official specs on Focusrite's official homepage, if they actually have different performances then Focusrite is not a honest company, do you want to accuse them of it? Actually the RMAA measurements are pretty similar to their published specs.

There's nothing dishonest about spec'ing a product worse than the independent measurements demonstrate.

You're correct that we don't have RMAA measurements of the 2i2, so you're trying to compare measurements of a different model (the 2i4). What's the point of that? Are you trying to pass off measurements of a different model as an "apples to apples comparison"? Do you see how that might strike me as kind of strange?

Anyway, I'm out of this one

 

[bennetng]

There's nothing dishonest about spec'ing a product worse than the independent measurements demonstrate.

Anyway, I'm out of this one

Well, unless you expect Focusrite deliberately make their dynamic range 13dB worse on specs. Actually I found some 2i2 measurements, but just too scared to show you. The 2i4 results are already the best RMAA results I could find.
http://html.midifan.com/review/2i2/[MME] Scarlett 2i2 USB 2448.htm

This one seems more reasonable.
https://www.infomusic.pl/test/46209,test-interfejsy-audio-behringer-focusrite-presonus-tascam

 

[andreasmaaan]

Fair enough @bennetng, I have to concede that you're right about the noise and crosstalk specs

I'm still not sure where you get the massive difference in figures for THD from though? Maybe buried in one of the previous posts which I can't find? My interpretation of the results are that the THD figures (and indeed spectrum) are fairly similar for both units (both between around 0.0005 and 0.0008%)?

 

[bennetng]

Fair enough @bennetng, I have to concede that you're right about the noise and crosstalk specs

I'm still not sure where you get the massive difference in figures for THD from though? Maybe buried in one of the previous posts which I can't find? My interpretation of the results are that the THD figures (and indeed spectrum) are fairly similar for both units (both between around 0.0005 and 0.0008%)?

Looks like those Focusrite interfaces have variable gains, tweaking the gain parameters affect the measurements, and Focusrite is also pretty honest to expect something like <0.003% in practical gain adjustments for normal usage. 1212m has fixed gain.

Here are the measurements of the even cheaper EMU 0202 USB interface with variable gain, supposedly tweaked to show the best measurements. Also note that the results are not loopback, but evaluated by a better interface (1616m).

https://www.ixbt.com/proaudio/emu/0202/emu-0202usb-2444-lineout.shtml
https://www.ixbt.com/proaudio/emu/0202/line-in-24-44.shtml

 

[andreasmaaan]

Looks like those Focusrite interfaces have variable gains, tweaking the gain parameters affect the measurements, and Focusrite is also pretty honest to expect something like <0.003% in practical gain adjustments for normal usage. 1212m has fixed gain.

Ok yeh, that explains it. Given that the gain adjustment is an additional feature of the 2i2, I think it's only fair to look at the 2i2's nonlinear distortion with its gain optimally set, which indeed puts it very much in the same league as the 1212M. After all, if you want to adjust gain with 1212M, you'll need to do it in software and this will also have detrimental effects on the unit's noise, distortion, etc.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Here are the measurements of the even cheaper EMU 0202 USB interface with variable gain, supposedly tweaked to show the best measurements. Also note that the results are not loopback, but evaluated by a better interface (1616m).

https://www.ixbt.com/proaudio/emu/0202/emu-0202usb-2444-lineout.shtml
https://www.ixbt.com/proaudio/emu/0202/line-in-24-44.shtml

E-MU 0202 USB used Cirrus Logic CS4392, which was also used in high-end audio interfaces like the Digidesign 003 and 003 Rack in addition to other E-MU products like the original 1820 and the Tracker Pre. E-MU seemed to be ahead of the curve in terms of value proposition, but it is strange to see that new audio interfaces in the $200 range have similar or inferior performance 12 years later.

Focusrite seem to be using flavors of the Cirrus Logic CS4272 for much of their Scarlett line.

 

[bennetng]

Ok yeh, that explains it. Given that the gain adjustment is an additional feature of the 2i2, I think it's only fair to look at the 2i2's nonlinear distortion with its gain optimally set, which indeed puts it very much in the same league as the 1212M. After all, if you want to adjust gain with 1212M, you'll need to do it in software and this will also have detrimental effects on the unit's noise, distortion, etc.

1212m has two fixed gain:
- Professional: +4dBu nominal, 20dBu max (balanced)
- Consumer: -10dBV nominal, 6dBV max (unbalanced)

Well, it is a soundcard instead of an external box, so pretty normal to see the absense of pots, but it has something a lot of <$200 interfaces don't have: coaxial/optical SPDIF I/O with ADAT and multiclient capable. For soundcards still available in this segment think about the Lynx E22 and RME HDSPe AIO and they are much more expensive.

The 0202USB with variable gain was only $100 and the measurements have good correlations with the official specs, which means better than the 2i2.
http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?category=610&pid=15186

 

[bennetng]

E-MU 0202 USB used Cirrus Logic CS4392, which was also used in high-end audio interfaces like the Digidesign 003 and 003 Rack in addition to other E-MU products like the original 1820 and the Tracker Pre. E-MU seemed to be ahead of the curve in terms of value proposition, but it is strange to see that new audio interfaces in the $200 range have similar or inferior performance 12 years later.

Focusrite seem to be using flavors of the Cirrus Logic CS4272 for much of their Scarlett line.

The better converters are on Focusrite's Clarett series, and much more expensive.

 

[andreasmaaan]

1212m has two fixed gain:
- Professional: +4dBu nominal, 20dBu max (balanced)
- Consumer: -10dBV nominal, 6dBV max (unbalanced)

Well, it is a soundcard instead of an external box, so pretty normal to see the absense of pots, but it has something a lot of <$200 interfaces don't have: coaxial/optical SPDIF I/O with ADAT and multiclient capable. For soundcards still available in this segment think about the Lynx E22 and RME HDSPe AIO and they are much more expensive.

The 0202USB with variable gain was only $100 and the measurements have good correlations with the official specs, which means better than the 2i2.
http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?category=610&pid=15186

Well we could get into comparing all the features of the two units, and I could say that included in the price of the 2i2 - which is already 30% less than EMU - is a case, mic preamp, blah blah blah.

I don't think this changes my point that a fair comparison needs to involve the 2i2 with its gain set optimally for the reasons I mentioned above.

Btw I agree with you that the EMU is an exceptional unit.

 

[bennetng]

Well we could get into comparing all the features of the two units, and I could say that included in the price of the 2i2 - which is already 30% less than EMU - is a case, mic preamp, blah blah blah.

I don't think this changes my point that a fair comparison needs to involve the 2i2 with its gain set optimally for the reasons I mentioned above.

Btw I agree with you that the EMU is an exceptional unit.

0202USB includes mic preamp and variable gain, at $100, and measured better than the 2i2, also has better official specs than the 2i2.

 

[andreasmaaan]

0202USB includes mic preamp and variable gain, at $100, and measured better than the 2i2, also has better official specs than the 2i2.

Good If I ever need a dirt-cheap unit that has this feature set I'll get it.

EDIT: nonlinear distortion seems to fall slightly short of the 2i2 however... Not that any of the stuff we're discussing here is in the range of possible audibility TBH.

 

[infinitesymphony]

The better converters are on Focusrite's Clarett series, and much more expensive.

Funny you should mention that, as the main stereo output DAC on the Clarett 8Pre/8PreX is.... Cirrus Logic CS4398.

I bought an E-MU 1212M a long time ago, moved to an 0404 USB, and finally bought a Focusrite Clarett 8PreX last year. Guess it's like a return home.

I find it interesting that so many audio interface and electronics manufacturers elect to go with Cirrus Logic chips (Focusrite, Apple, Avid, et al), while they seem to be virtually ignored by DAC manufacturers in favor of ESS and AKM chips. Analog Devices seem to be in hiding too after seeing quite a bit of use in Benchmark and Lavry DACs, IIRC.

 

[Blumlein 88]

In the regards to 2i2 or other Scarlett's vs EMU, you could look at Archimago's tests going back some. He used an EMU, which clearly did better than the Scarletts. He replaced it with a Focusrite Forte which I also happen to own. It was some better, but not a bunch better than the EMU. It is more than some better than the Scarletts. Archimago now uses an RME. So the EMUs could wring out surprisingly good performance for the time.

 

[bennetng]

Good If I ever need a dirt-cheap unit that has this feature set I'll get it.

EDIT: nonlinear distortion seems to fall slightly short of the 2i2 however... Not that any of the stuff we're discussing here is in the range of possible audibility TBH.

Tracker Pre and 0202 USB are different products. I talked about 0202USB.