General design stupidity

[mansr]

identify if it's on or off (close to impossible as the switches don't change color according to state, Major Fail #1 ),

On my phone they are blue when on and grey when off, very distinct.

But the real PITA is that this pop-up is dynamic in that the slide switch locations on the screen depend on their current state and even change arbitrarily without user action (Major Fail #2, violating the #1 rule of UI design )! At first the panel is small, but after a second or so it expands growing to the top, showing the list of networks when WiFi is currently on. So just in the moment you wanted to tap WiFi you accidently tap something else as the slide switch has moved, now how fucked up is that?

Control elements that move around are very annoying indeed.

The hack : https://9to5google.com/2021/10/26/android-12-internet-wifi-mobile-data-toggles/
Didn't work for me. I got the MobileData button back, but not WiFi.

That worked (Pixel 5). Thanks.

 

[KSTR]

On my phone they are blue when on and grey when off, very distinct.

Only true when Dark Theme is not activated, otherwise ON is just a tad lighter shade of gray than OFF, hard to discern.

In general it would have been way more intuitive to make the switches vertical and hence up is the natual ON position. It's been dominantly that way for light switches for almost centuries now (except for UK etc, they always have things backwards ;-), for circuit breakers in distribution panels, switches on industrial machines and equipment, aircraft, etc.

Some guy put that in nice words: "As an eyelid opens, the eye can see, meaning the switch is on. When the eyelid closes, we can't see, meaning the switch is off".
So simple and intuitive, but obviously it didn't occur to those Android proggers, meh, and they placed the switches sideways (where right=on is not logical to me at all and I simply cannot remember it and get wrong every time).
They could as well just have placed an ON/OFF text somewhere, problem solved once and for all (ON and OFF are understood in every language on the earth by now).

 

[pjug]

This could have been posted in the "...are you stupid as hell or whut..." thread but I'll be kind to myself and post it here.

I knew this would happen eventually. After shoveling a lot of snow after this storm, I warmed up my car and went inside for coffee. Drove my car, pushbutton start, to work so I could shovel out there. Looked for my keys and realized I left them at home so I was stuck since I turned off the car. How can a car be designed so it can drive without a key? I think there is a light that says no key detected, but apparently I didn't notice it.

No big deal this time since I was close enough to walk, but this could cause a real headache or worse.

 

[mhardy6647]

This could have been posted in the "...are you stupid as hell or whut..." thread but I'll be kind to myself and post it here.

I knew this would happen eventually. After shoveling a lot of snow after this storm, I warmed up my car and went inside for coffee. Drove my car, pushbutton start, to work so I could shovel out there. Looked for my keys and realized I left them at home so I was stuck since I turned off the car. How can a car be designed so it can drive without a key? I think there is a light that says no key detected, but apparently I didn't notice it.

No big deal this time since I was close enough to walk, but this could cause a real headache or worse.

When I was in a technical strategy group in a (very) large pharmaceutical company (with a pfunny name), I formulated what I called Hardy's Law of Technology:

There is such a thing as too much technology.

 

[anmpr1]

After shoveling a lot of snow after this storm, I warmed up my car and went inside for coffee. Drove my car, pushbutton start, to work so I could shovel out there. Looked for my keys and realized I left them at home so I was stuck since I turned off the car. How can a car be designed so it can drive without a key? I think there is a light that says no key detected, but apparently I didn't notice it.

Don't feel bad. I had a colleague who was not 'stupid' (he was a physician, so he had to have gotten through med school, somehow). Doc wanted a new car. and the dealer gave him a 'loaner' to try out for the day. After arriving to work, he locked the car, but didn't realize it was still running. After all, the key was in his pocket. Must have had a full tank, because at the end of his shift he got in and drove off.

In the 'old' days, keys stayed in the ignition switch until you stopped the car. But even back then, with manual door locks, people locked their keys in the car. That was what AAA was for.

The most 'ergonomic' automobile I drove was an MG Midget. The electrics never worked, but it didn't matter because it was so light and small that you could push it a few feet, jump in and throw the lever into 2nd (couldn't use 1st because first wasn't synched), pop the clutch, and it would start right up.

Didn't have to worry about locking keys in the car, either, because you simply unsnapped the top and climbed in. LOL

 

[jhaider]

Drove my car, pushbutton start, to work so I could shovel out there. Looked for my keys and realized I left them at home so I was stuck since I turned off the car. How can a car be designed so it can drive without a key?

So anyone can walk up to that model car and, if it’s unlocked, push the button and drive off? That sounds like a huge defect.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So anyone can walk up to that model car and, if it’s unlocked, push the button and drive off? That sounds like a huge defect.

I don't think that is how it works.

If you have the key fob in your pocket, the car lets you use the push to start button. Now you can then drive away with the key fob left behind. As long as you don't stall or turn off the car fine. Once you turn it off, without the key fob it will not start. He mentioned letting the car warm up. So he had the key fob to start, went back inside and left the key fob, which didn't prevent him going back out and driving to work without a key.

A friend was showing me his new Miata with such a key. He was standing next to it, and said crank it up and take it for a spin. I hit push to start, and drive away. A block away a key symbol starts flashing on the dash, I ignored it going on a 5 mile or so drive. Had I stalled his manual shift car somewhere along the way, I would have been stuck.

 

[MRC01]

... If you have the key fob in your pocket, the car lets you use the push to start button. Now you can then drive away with the key fob left behind. As long as you don't stall or turn off the car fine. Once you turn it off, without the key fob it will not start. ...

Correct. I think the idea is that you can let a valet park the car while you keep the keys. Even that doesn't really make sense since the valet usually keeps the keys for you. But it's the only plausible explanation I can think of.

I too prefer old fashioned key ignitions. When you have to stop for a train or bridge, you can turn the key from on directly to acc so the radio never shuts off and whatever music you're listening to continues playing. With these darn buttons you can't go directly from on to acc, you have to push it repeatedly to cycle through off, then acc, which kills the radio.

Not only these keys, but also the computers, electronics and automation are killing the joy of driving in modern cars. Even high performance cars have automatic transmissions & computed controlled throttle & traction. They're also much too heavy combined with electric steering assist gives slow dead steering response. The Mazda Miata is one of the few exceptions to this, a car that still has a great road feel and driving experience: light, responsive, stick shift, etc. I don't want the car taking over my steering, braking, shifting or traction like most modern cars do. I don't want a smart car, I want a dumb car: https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/29/please-make-a-dumb-car/

 

[anmpr1]

Correct. I think the idea is that you can let a valet park the car while you keep the keys. Even that doesn't really make sense since the valet usually keeps the keys for you. But it's the only plausible explanation I can think of.

I have no insight into why automakers do what they do, but my first guess would be cost. It is probably cheaper to mass produce a push button ignition that is 'linked' wirelessly to a battery powered key fob, than it is to engineer and install a manual crank-style 'key in the ignition' switch that will last the lifetime of the car. Compare also, the GM ignition switch failure debacle.

I think that is why you find an increasing number of user functions accessed through an unintuitive touchscreen menu-tree, instead of actual button/knobs/sliders on the dash. While a menu-tree touchscreen is not ergonomic for the driver, it is cheaper to make and install for the manufacturer.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I rather like the push button start. It may need some changes for issues. Not having to pull out the keys is pretty good to me. I don't like the no accessory option available directly.

I had an older 2nd car where the key broke off in the switch and ruined it. A replacement wasn't available anywhere. I put a switch to power everything up in an unused accessory location on the dash. Where cruise control went only I didn't have cruise. Just under the lip of the dash I put a spring loaded toggle switch for the starter. I came to like it so much not having to fool with the key, I left it that way. Hop in the car, hit a button and push a spring loaded start switch and off you go. I liked that alot. I still had keys to lock and unlock the doors plus anyone getting in would not have known how to start it. I drove it a few years that way and always missed it. These push to start buttons get me back to that (although I don't own a car with those at the current time).

 

[TunaBug]

My car uses my phone as the key, which normally works quite well, but I still keep the credit card sized key in my wallet. The only design complaint I have is that if I leave my phone in the car then anybody can drive off. Sounds like a big deal, but I rarely forget, and phone as key is just so darned convenient.

 

[Emlin]

My car uses my phone as the key, which normally works quite well, but I still keep the credit card sized key in my wallet. The only design complaint I have is that if I leave my phone in the car then anybody can drive off. Sounds like a big deal, but I rarely forget, and phone as key is just so darned convenient.

Does that work when you're out of battery?

 

[mansr]

Does that work when you're out of battery?

Charge it using the car's battery. If that's dead too, you have a bigger problem.

 

[anmpr1]

I rather like the push button start.

I've had them all, from key hanging from the metal dash (Dodge slant six pickup) to the column lockers. I once had an MGA that had a crank you could insert into the front of the engine, from the outside, and turn it over. I don't remember if it required a key, but it must have. The weirdest placement was a SAAB 9-2 hatch I drove for a while. Key switch was on the center column hump, between the front seats. Quirky car. Fun, but expensive to maintain. I guess that's pretty much any Euro car.

 

[Emlin]

Charge it using the car's battery. If that's dead too, you have a bigger problem.

How do you get into the car to use its battery?

 

[mansr]

The weirdest placement was a SAAB 9-2 hatch I drove for a while. Key switch was on the center column hump, between the front seats.

Did it also lock the gearbox in reverse when the key was removed? I know some SAAB models had that feature.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've had them all, from key hanging from the metal dash (Dodge slant six pickup) to the column lockers. I once had an MGA that had a crank you could insert into the front of the engine, from the outside, and turn it over. I don't remember if it required a key, but it must have. The weirdest placement was a SAAB 9-2 hatch I drove for a while. Key switch was on the center column hump, between the front seats. Quirky car. Fun, but expensive to maintain. I guess that's pretty much any Euro car.

A college girlfriend had one of those SAABs with the key between the seats.

I remember old Studebaker trucks you turned on the key, but activated the starter by fully depressing the clutch which hit a starter button on the floor. Quite a few 1930's cars you turned on a switch and hit a button on the floor to activate the starter motor. Some had the starter button on the dash again separate from the switch.

 

[Mnyb]

Focus stealing aps and programs both on the computer and phone. And focus stealing inflation ( all aps wants s to be on top )

You can bet as you are typing some annoying thing pops up and gets in the way like that there is WiFi network you can join or what not , it always happens when using BankID or something.

Can we just vaporise programers that don’t understand that when you actively using/typing etc in program absolutely nothing has the rigth to pop up in front of it , just never ever.

 

[TunaBug]

Does that work when you're out of battery?

That's the main reason to keep the actual key in my wallet.

For the most part, though, if the car doesn't open when I walk up to it then it's a nice reminder that I forgot the phone.

 

[pjug]

I don't think that is how it works.

If you have the key fob in your pocket, the car lets you use the push to start button. Now you can then drive away with the key fob left behind. As long as you don't stall or turn off the car fine. Once you turn it off, without the key fob it will not start. He mentioned letting the car warm up. So he had the key fob to start, went back inside and left the key fob, which didn't prevent him going back out and driving to work without a key.

A friend was showing me his new Miata with such a key. He was standing next to it, and said crank it up and take it for a spin. I hit push to start, and drive away. A block away a key symbol starts flashing on the dash, I ignored it going on a 5 mile or so drive. Had I stalled his manual shift car somewhere along the way, I would have been stuck.

Yes that's how it works. You have to have the fob to start the car but then it just keeps running whether you have it or not. In my case I left my keys in my house when I drove away.

They could make it so it won'r drive without the fob. Problem with that is their solution to low fob battery is to hold the fob up to the start button and so you couldn't really drive that way if your fob battery ran low. It is just a potential headache no matter what. Really I'd prefer a pure mechanical key with no fob. But if not that then a mechanical key with small integral fob.

edit: and yes it is a Mazda. Also the other thing I hate about pushbutton is that I have been conditioned by 40 years of mechanical keys in the steering column. So initially I was always forgetting to take my keys with me when I got out of the car with this pushbutton business (the fob is too effing big to just put in my pocket with the other keys shared on my keyring). I have made a habit of hanging my keyring on the inside door latch which is pretty much solving that problem. Except for today when I warmed up the car which I don't normally do.