Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[daftcombo]

Richard I imagine and hope they have a suitable ‘one’ atop of each 371, I want to see/hear how effective the various options are.
Placement close to walls works for most domestic users, releases some of the room etc etc, full-range cardioid uses a lot of real estate/headroom.
How effective is the cancellation, better than cabs/sink source, PSI’s traps etc, I can see the advantage in studios where speakers might have to be pulled away from the front wall.
Keith

Hi,
You'll have to calibrate the whole thing with GLM in room before, right? Otherwise, how do you place the One on the W371? They need to be time-aligned and phase needs to be corrected right?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Only a week premature though.
Keith

Ah of course, it will be against the rules before 17th May anyway

 

[Purité Audio]

Hi,
You'll have to calibrate the whole thing with GLM in room before, right? Otherwise, how do you place the One on the W371? They need to be time-aligned and phase needs to be corrected right?

This is the U.K Genelec demonstration centre, I imagine everything will be properly configured.
Keith

 

[Tovarich007]

Thanks a lot to all of you who answered my post about cardiod or not cardiod effect.

In fact, you are right, diagram results from around 50 hz and above actually give a shape resembling a cardiod one. I wonder how this can be managed in a medium size room. (of course cardiod patterns are commonly achieved in PA or concerts sound equipments, but the distances and Spls are not the same).

Anyway, it seems to work thanks to sophiscated digital processing, so I admit that my position on cardioid is a bit shattered by these precisions and measurements.

By the way, can you tell more about the 5 modes of the Genelc W371A ? How they're working ?

But, as for me, the most amazing results in controlling bass waves dispersion are obtained by Geithain, the most remarkable being this company has been using for decades only traditionnal full analog and acoustics methods, nothing digital, but they're doing better in the very low frequencies than D&D or Kii with their sophisticated digital processing and algorithms ! I don' know how they're doing it, but they do !
Unfortunately, Geithain speakers are not available in France. I would love to listen carefully to them. Geithain stays mostly "under the radar" outside Germany, and even in Germany the brand is much less widespread than Neumann or Adam audio. It's a shame considering the quality and original conception of their speakers who gained a cult reputation among some pros and music lovers "Outre Rhin" ("the other side of the Rhine river", as we used to say "chez les Gaulois")

 

[MarsianC#]

By the way, can you tell more about the 5 modes of the Genelc W371A ? How they're working ?

There is a nice webinar somewhere on Genelecs website. I'll search for it asap. Edit: Seems to be offlibe, but there is another one covering the W371A online. Registration required too :/

Modi are:

• Complementary, aka Multisub or A+B
• CD
• Nullsteering Back, aka Cardioid
• Nullsterring Side, aka Dipol
• Nullsteering Vertical, reduction of floor bounce

I guess crossover between drivers in all but complementary mode is fixed by design, xover to top is chosen by GLM.

 

[richard12511]

There is a nice webinar somewhere on Genelecs website. I'll search for it asap. Edit: Seems to be offlibe, but there is another one covering the W371A online. Registration required too :/

Modi are:

• Complementary, aka Multisub or A+B
• CD
• Nullsteering Back, aka Cardioid
• Nullsterring Side, aka Dipol
• Nullsteering Vertical, reduction of floor bounce

View attachment 129540
I guess crossover between drivers in all but complementary mode is fixed by design, xover to top is chosen by GLM.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[richard12511]

What a great webinar. I would definitely recommend a watch for anyone who's interested in the W371. Watching that made me want them more, though I do still have some questions.

In the video, it's seemed like they kinda preferred the "Complimentary Mode". That mode turns the Ones into a 5 way speaker, which is kinda like trying to replicate the results you could get by running 8351 + Mid bass modules + multisub. If you're wanting to run these full range(like @Frank Dernie), this mode seems like the best(though being able to try the other 4 is a huge plus). I was skeptical of this mode based on how close the woofers are together, but man do they get some good results.

Other than the deep bass extension, that's as good as my 4 RS2 response below 100Hz, and better from 100-250Hz . I do wonder how "golden" this example is, though. I'm guessing it won't get results that excellent in most rooms, and I'd be very interested in seeing other examples.

Interesting that they ran the 8351b in the upright orientation. They actually posted a comparable beamwidth graph so that we can better compare. Unless you the crossover can do some magic, it does appear that the upright orientation will have a bulge in directivity around the crossover.

Still excellent, but it seems to me that you have to lay the 8351 on it's side to have true constant directivity with no bulge. That said, the crossover will no doubt iron out most of that difference (as @q3cpma pointed out).

@Purité Audio , if you can, one thing I'd like you to compare is the subjective difference between the complimentary mode and the cardioid modes(other 4). The complimentary mode seems to be the best in terms of getting the best in room response, but I wonder if there's some magic in controlling directivity in that 100-500Hz range. @fluid 's example seems to suggest there is. The complimentary mode loses the cardioid dispersion, but does so to improve the in room response. I'm curious about the subjective tradeoff there.

 

[Bernard 54]

I do not know which mode was used during my listening at the Chopin Center last week.
I think Gilles and David were able to optimize their calibration since that date.
Tovarich007 and I will share with you next week the differences felt in the context of this room which is around 4x4m.

 

[Bernard 54]

Another W371A general presentation webinar : https://register.gotowebinar.com/register/8449341546397558032?source=COM

 

[fluid]

If anyone wants to watch the webinar without registering here is a link to a recording which was posted in another thread. I imagine that the information is the same as it is the same presenters and topic.

https://register.gotowebinar.com/re...0730648966160&type=ATTENDEEEMAILRECORDINGLINK

Here is a snip from that webinar showing the continued directivity mode, this to me is what is interesting about the W371. The 100 to 500Hz region looks to have less destructive room interference which is an area that is hard to deal with in conventional speakers.

An active cardioid transitioning to a monopole below 100Hz makes a lot of sense to me and this arrangement of drivers just so happens to match very nicely with some drivers I already have. An all sealed version of this to see if it works for me is my next diy mission, after I've made the perfect waveguide to go on top

 

[nai]

This is my 12 square meters of frequency response curve, distance 2.2 meters, 8361 + w371

 

[richard12511]

View attachment 129925This is my 12 square meters of frequency response curve, distance 2.2 meters, 8361 + w371

Very cool. Yeah, based on measurements, I'm starting to think that that 8351/8361 + W371 is the ultimate end game setup for $30k(other than maybe Beolab90). I just wish the W371 was less expensive. The Kii and D&D seem to not measure quite as well (especially above 500Hz), but they give you the the directivity control for a much cheaper price($12.5k vs $28k). Ones beat the D&D above 500Hz, but how much is the directivity in that lower region worth? That's the question. Personally, the 8C still seems like the best deal if the end user doesn't have a multsiub setup.

 

[Bernard 54]

View attachment 129925This is my 12 square meters of frequency response curve, distance 2.2 meters, 8361 + w371

Super
By comparing your last results with those of July 2020, I observe the following changes:
> better curve
> the use of GLM4 / GLM3
> a new decoration of your room
Have you changed the listening distance?
What do you attribute this improvement to ?

 

[nai]

Super
By comparing your last results with those of July 2020, I observe the following changes:
> better curve
> the use of GLM4 / GLM3
> a new decoration of your room
Have you changed the listening distance?
What do you attribute this improvement to ?

A large amount of basf g+ melamine is used

 

[Bernard 54]

I wasn't suggesting it should be crossed over at 80Hz. What I was saying is that if your W371 crossover is 170Hz, and you're using ACTUAL subs at 80Hz, the W371 is playing over a very narrow range. I would expect the crossover to be more like 250Hz or 300Hz... if you are expecting the W371A to improve your in-room sound at those frequencies, anyhow.

The 8351B/8361A's native crossovers may be the same, but the directivity is not, nor is the woofer SPL capability, so it wouldn't make sense for GLM to have the same crossover search parameters for both. I would guess it works a bit differently for each model.

It seems like the default range is 150-250Hz according to the GLM manual, which is a bit surprising to me. Most of my room issues are in the 200-500hz range in fact, so it seems like by default this might not even help me that much. Perhaps that is unusual for a studio though, and you should alter the default according to your room in any case. I dunno.



You're correct that we don't actually know the slopes of the W371 crossover, and it doesn't say in either the manual or GLM manual. I do think it's unlikely they're using a particularly shallow one like 6dB/oct.

I also do not understand why the GLM 3 & 4 indicate a default range of 150-250 Hz. The speakers of the 2 WEBINARS have indeed systematically increased it to 300 Hz.
While waiting for a new GLM 4 version?

 

[mononoaware]

In the video, it's seemed like they kinda preferred the "Complimentary Mode". That mode turns the Ones into a 5 way speaker, which is kinda like trying to replicate the results you could get by running 8351 + Mid bass modules + multisub. If you're wanting to run these full range(like @Frank Dernie), this mode seems like the best(though being able to try the other 4 is a huge plus).

Hi you mean the "Complimentary mode" turns the 8351A + W371A into a 5-way speaker right?
Since the 8351A are 3-way design, and the W371A uses 2 large woofers.

 

[mononoaware]

based on measurements, I'm starting to think that that 8351/8361 + W371 is the ultimate end game setup for $30k(other than maybe Beolab90). I just wish the W371 was less expensive.

Beolab 90 price is $40k per unit though so pair price is ~$80k, much more than 2x Genelec 8351 + 2x W371A.
(Maybe you can find a deal for Beolab 90 for $30k per unit)

Also it seems you are much more knowledgeable and experienced than me, but we have similar interest in end-game speakers.

Currently I make do with what I have, but I do think about "end-game" speakers and personally it is either the Genelec 8341A + W371A or Grimm Audio LS1 + LS1s-DMF.

One more speaker I discovered which I found interesting was the Steinway Lyngdorf Model O.
What first caught my eye was the similar thin depth/wide front baffle design to Grimm Audio LS1.
Upon reading the specs I was disappointed that the rear-firing 8-inch woofer at the bottom was a passive-radiator, oh and the price. . .
So Genelec or Grimm system are the most desirable.

 

[Sancus]

Interestingly, I asked Genelec support about crossover slopes. Apparently ALL SAM crossovers are 8th order linkwitz(48dB/oct). This includes all their subwoofers and any crossover for the W371A.

 

[mononoaware]

Quick google search resulted in this quick explanation of the W371A + the 5 different calibration modes for common folk like myself.
https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/gear-and-technology/innovations-genelec-w371a-adaptive-woofer-system


It really does have the feeling of "professional" and "commercial" use cases.
Almost like Genelec includes a team of staff in the pricing so that setup/everything goes smoothly.
On the other hand I really do enjoy reading long instruction manuals from beginning to end. . .

 

[Trell]

Interestingly, I asked Genelec support about crossover slopes. Apparently ALL SAM crossovers are 8th order linkwitz(48dB/oct). This includes all their subwoofers and any crossover for the W371A.

This explains the fast slope of the crossovers when I did REW sweeps of my new 8330A and the 7350A subwoofer. At first I thought I might have done something wrong in the measurement setup.