Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[richard12511]

In my case, GLM set the crossover at 170Hz (not 500Hz).

That seems really low. Wouldn't it have a dispersion width bulge with the crossover that low?

 

[richard12511]

The W371 isn't a sub though, so crossing it over at 80Hz would be daft.

I think he meant crossover between the W371 and the subwoofers, not the crossover between the 8351/8361 and the W371.

If you've got 4 well integrated subwoofers, they're most likely gonna be smoother than the W371, so you'll likely want to let them play up as high(say 80-120Hz) as they can. I do see is his point. If you've got subs doing 10-100Hz, W371 doing 100-170Hz, and then 8361 doing 170-20,000Hz, how much value can the W371 really be adding? I'm sure it's still a net gain, but $9,000 worth?

 

[Sancus]

I think he meant crossover between the W371 and the subwoofers, not the crossover between the 8351/8361 and the W371.

If you've got 4 well integrated subwoofers, they're most likely gonna be smoother than the W371, so you'll likely want to let them play up as high(say 80-120Hz) as they can. I do see is his point. If you've got subs doing 10-100Hz, W371 doing 100-170Hz, and then 8361 doing 170-20,000Hz, how much value can the W371 really be adding? I'm sure it's still a net gain, but $9,000 worth?

Yeah, not only that, but while I know it's a different method, you can buy 4(or more!) great subs that go up to 200hz for a lot less money. And can use Multi-Sub Optimizer or another approach like that to get very flat response. TBH I always thought that the big benefit of the W371 would be its performance from 200-500hz where the "omni subs approach" would be far less practical. So to find that GLM picks crossovers below 200hz is pretty surprising to me...

 

[richard12511]

TBH I always thought that the big benefit of the W371 would be its performance from 200-500hz where the "omni subs approach" would be far less practical. So to find that GLM picks crossovers below 200hz is pretty surprising to me...

100% agreed. I too am surprised it would pick a crossover so low. If you want controlled directivity, it seems like anything below ~240Hz or so wouldn't work.

@pierre , have you experimented with raising that crossover?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I think he meant crossover between the W371 and the subwoofers, not the crossover between the 8351/8361 and the W371.

If you've got 4 well integrated subwoofers, they're most likely gonna be smoother than the W371, so you'll likely want to let them play up as high(say 80-120Hz) as they can. I do see is his point. If you've got subs doing 10-100Hz, W371 doing 100-170Hz, and then 8361 doing 170-20,000Hz, how much value can the W371 really be adding? I'm sure it's still a net gain, but $9,000 worth?

If you have 4 well integrated subwoofers all the reasons I have for considering W371 have gone.

I have largely dealt with bass room interaction in my room with speaker location, the peaks that remain are small but could be (as far as the marketing videos imply) resolved by one of the W371's modes (which is, in effect, 4 managed well spaced bass drivers if I am understanding the reason for the tall cabinet and widely spaced drivers correctly) to have 4 bass sources for exactly that reason.

My interest is to get a more even bass than I have now (and I have little to complain about, actually) without more subs. Having two speaker "stands" that effectively perform this function would be the best possible solution in terms of disturbance to my listening room and habits.

OTOH I find the ones an eyesore so the combination would have to be a knockout SQ improvement for me to tolerate them in my line of sight.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yeah, not only that, but while I know it's a different method, you can buy 4(or more!) great subs that go up to 200hz for a lot less money. And can use Multi-Sub Optimizer or another approach like that to get very flat response. TBH I always thought that the big benefit of the W371 would be its performance from 200-500hz where the "omni subs approach" would be far less practical. So to find that GLM picks crossovers below 200hz is pretty surprising to me...

For me personally the price is worth it for losing the hassle of dicking about interminably with software and having 4 more big boxes to find locations for. I have zero free wall space in my room and zero inclination to ruin the layout by moving stuff to create it!
In fact a 8351B/W371 combination is less expensive than either of the two main pairs of passive speakers I currently enjoy.
My kit is the product of 50 years of accumulation and a 60-80 hour working week meaning "listening to music" has been allocated 99% of the spare time and "dicking about" almost none.
I have plenty of time now, have done a bit of dicking about, and decided not to go for a multi-sub option over 2 full range speakers and a single assymetrically spaced sub but maybe the W371 would be the answer.
The user can experiment with different crossover points in GLM btw.

OTOH I am not sure how conveniently the Genelec system would fit into my music enjoying habits anyway, the active speakers I have which are on my network hardly ever get used for this reason.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

100% agreed. I too am surprised it would pick a crossover so low. If you want controlled directivity, it seems like anything below ~240Hz or so wouldn't work.

@pierre , have you experimented with raising that crossover?

What is benefit of directivity control in transition region and below?

 

[fluid]

A recent masters thesis had a look at this topic, there is a lot of background stuff at the beginning but it gets somewhere at the end.

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

 

[hardisj]

A recent masters thesis had a look at this topic, there is a lot of background stuff at the beginning but it gets somewhere at the end.

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

This is awesome. I don't have the time to read all the text but browsing through the figures and the explanations, this is quite a great document. I hope the fellow received his/her thesis from this.

Interesting to see the difference obtained (both objectively and subjectively) between the 1 meter and 3 meter tests.

 

[richard12511]

If you have 4 well integrated subwoofers all the reasons I have for considering W371 have gone.

Indeed our reasons for wanting these seem to be slightly different. For me, the most interesting part is the 200-500Hz part, where my subs aren't helping me at all. I'm actually not aware of any other solution to change the directivity in that upper range(other than buying new speakers like D&D or Kii), so for me it's likely the only solution. Running them full range in complimentary mode, I wonder what the directivity looks like(I don't think Genelec shows it). It may still give you that directivity control from 150Hz+ that might be beneficial.

I have largely dealt with bass room interaction in my room with speaker location, the peaks that remain are small but could be (as far as the marketing videos imply) resolved by one of the W371's modes (which is, in effect, 4 managed well spaced bass drivers if I am understanding the reason for the tall cabinet and widely spaced drivers correctly) to have 4 bass sources for exactly that reason.

Yeah the complimentary mode is perhaps the coolest mode for controlling the deep bass. From what I understand, we can't separate direct sound from reflected sound below a certain point, so cardioid pattern doesn't really matter. It just loads the room differently. The complimentary mode seems most likely to be the best mode in most situations if one is not crossing to subwoofers. I think your understanding is correct, and it's the way I see it too. In fact, it may be the best solution there is for someone who doesn't want separate subs. Obviously separate subs will be better, as they can be even more "well spaced", but not everyone wants that hassle and/or aesthetic compromise.

My interest is to get a more even bass than I have now (and I have little to complain about, actually) without more subs. Having two speaker "stands" that effectively perform this function would be the best possible solution in terms of disturbance to my listening room and habits.

I agree, and this does seem like the best solution for "more even bass without more subs" that I know of. I am a bit skeptical of just how close it can get to multi-sub, as the drivers are still relatively close(relatively) together in space. Would love to see some examples of what it can do in various rooms.

OTOH I find the ones an eyesore so the combination would have to be a knockout SQ improvement for me to tolerate them in my line of sight.

I actually like the look of the Ones in white tbh. White speaker with black drivers is a favorite combo of mine(I really like the look of the Grimm LS1Be in white). Not a huge fan of white cabinets with white/gray driver(like you see in other Genelec models). I also like the look of the 8351's curved cabinets. I do wish the aesthetic of the W371 matched closer to the aesthetic of the 8351, though. The curved cabinet and rectangular box are definitely at odds.

 

[richard12511]

What is benefit of directivity control in transition region and below?

This is something I'm not sure of at all. I do have opinions, though.

1. Below 100Hz, I'm pretty convinced that it's of no benefit. I actually think it's a detriment, as it's wasting energy down there that could be more headroom for EQ. The CD and Null steering modes are useless here IMO for home use, which is why I'd be crossing to multiple subs around 100Hz.

2. Below 200Hz, I'm undecided. Almost all of the in room measurements I've seen of Kii and D&D have shown those speakers to be a little more effective at dealing with SBIR. I'd love to know how audible this is.

3. Between 200-500Hz, this is where I'm fairly positive the CD and Null steering can be very effective and make a noticeable difference. I have peaking and nulling issues in that range for all of my speakers. Ex(right speaker):

This is also right in that region that Toole says is responsible for "envelopment". My guess is that being directive there may lose some sense of envelopment, but will likely gain cleanliness and clarity. For those who want to hear what's on the recording, I would think this is a good option to try.

*Edit: It seems like @fluid ' s thesis and research may directly address some of my questions.

 

[richard12511]

A recent masters thesis had a look at this topic, there is a lot of background stuff at the beginning but it gets somewhere at the end.

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

Thanks for the link. Very relevant, and exactly the kinda research we need. Reading it now.

 

[FrantzM]

We're getting overly fine, trying to find fault in the system. i am willing to bet that, in real rooms, even large ones, this system + GLM goes 20~20 Khz flat like a pancake, is CD from 50 Hz to 20 KHz...and will produce 110 dB peak @ 3m with THD <3%... in its passband...
I am not in the market for such expensive system (yet ? ) but if I were and knowing what I know now, thanks to ASR.. Those would be the ones i would grab. The M2 could have been in the running but I prefer the approach and ease of customization of the GLM solution.... And there are the Kii BXT, the Barefoot and the Geithain and ... Dutch and Dutch which could come at any moment with their own uber-subwoofer ... D&D has expérience with cardioid subwoofers... let's not forget that.



Peace

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

This is something I'm not sure of at all. I do have opinions, though.

1. Below 100Hz, I'm pretty convinced that it's of no benefit. I actually think it's a detriment, as it's wasting energy down there that could be more headroom for EQ. The CD and Null steering modes are useless here IMO for home use, which is why I'd be crossing to multiple subs around 100Hz.

2. Below 200Hz, I'm undecided. Almost all of the in room measurements I've seen of Kii and D&D have shown those speakers to be a little more effective at dealing with SBIR. I'd love to know how audible this is.

3. Between 200-500Hz, this is where I'm fairly positive the CD and Null steering can be very effective and make a noticeable difference. I have peaking and nulling issues in that range for all of my speakers. Ex(right speaker):

View attachment 129188

This is also right in that region that Toole says is responsible for "envelopment". My guess is that being directive there may lose some sense of envelopment, but will likely gain cleanliness and clarity. For those who want to hear what's on the recording, I would think this is a good option to try.

*Edit: It seems like @fluid ' s thesis and research may directly address some of my questions.

Seems like your main goal is smoothness of the frequency response? For some rooms, the location of the driver producing the frequency range could be more important than the extended directivity control.

 

[richard12511]

A recent masters thesis had a look at this topic, there is a lot of background stuff at the beginning but it gets somewhere at the end.

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

Wow! What a great read, and exactly what I was looking for. Seems that increasing directivity in that 100-600Hz range has measurable in room differences, and it also seems to improve overall blind listening preference. I loved how you broke apart several different aspects of preference and showed the differences for each. Also interesting to me is that the test was done in stereo, and many of the benefits of the narrower LF dispersion showed in the perception of the phantom stereo image. I wonder if the results would have been different if the tests had been done in mono?

 

[Purité Audio]

Appointment to hear these at the London Gen UK ( Wells Street )centre initiated.
I would really like to take my mic and laptop, it would be really interesting to have some real room comparative measurements.
Keith

 

[richard12511]

Seems like your main goal is smoothness of the frequency response? For some rooms, the location of the driver producing the frequency range could be more important than the extended directivity control.

My main goal is maximum blind listening preference. My questions mainly revolve around does the increased LF directivity control that you see in these new speakers(W371, Kii 3, 8C) lead to higher listener preference over more traditional designs(Salon2, KEF Reference, 8351).

I would highly suggest reading @fluid 's Thesis paper. I just finished it, and it directly answers your initial question "What is benefit of directivity control in transition region and below? ".

In general, the answer seems to be "it sounds better", but they also do a good job of identifying the exact benefits and why exactly it sounds better. Some of those benefits include tighter, clearer bass, better transient delivery, better stereo imaging, and less perceived coloration. Really great read, and almost exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Purité Audio]

When we recently compared the 8Cs/hedd’s/8351Bs the 8Cs measurements between the 80-200 Hz region were much tidier, ie half in terms of cancellation/reinforcements , bear in mind the client had measured th 8351s with GLM and I measured the 8Cs ( from the same LP ) with REW.
Keith

 

[richard12511]

When we recently compared the 8Cs/hedd’s/8351Bs the 8Cs measurements between the 80-200 Hz region were much tidier, ie half in terms of cancellation/reinforcements , bear in mind the client had measured th 8351s with GLM and I measured the 8Cs ( from the same LP ) with REW.
Keith

The measurements in that paper showed something similar.

Blue is traditional speaker, red is speaker with LF directivity control.

 

[Frgirard]

When we recently compared the 8Cs/hedd’s/8351Bs the 8Cs measurements between the 80-200 Hz region were much tidier, ie half in terms of cancellation/reinforcements , bear in mind the client had measured th 8351s with GLM and I measured the 8Cs ( from the same LP ) with REW.
Keith

Sorry to break the mood. The 8Cs measured with professionalism

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153