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Genelec on audio science

Wombat

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I consider that there is no definitive answer to this subject of capturing performance in one arena and reproducing it in another space. Various opinions are proffered but cannot definitively answer my questions.

It is in reality an apple and oranges comparison, or a pear and carrot. Too much conjecture and not enough substantiation. Hey, it can be a seemingless endless talking topic but that doesn't seem to get us far.
 

Guermantes

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It sounds like a compromise between neither method doing the job. Let's average the compromises and let preference override accuracy/reality.
Yup, it's all compromise based on what is preferred for replay over two speakers. Binaural is great but replay practicality limits its use.
 

Pio2001

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I consider that there is no definitive answer to this subject of capturing performance in one arena and reproducing it in another space. Various opinions are proffered but cannot definitively answer my questions.

There is a fundamental limitation with the technology that we use : the sound that comes to both our ears is a two-dimentional function of time : amplitude and direction of propagation, while the sound that we record in each channel is a one-dimentional function of time : amplitude only. Information about the original direction of propagation is lost.
 

Frank Dernie

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I have recorded classical with a Decca type mike layout and with a Sennheiser dummy head. I like the dummy head because it is easier :), I like the sound over speakers too, not just on headphones.
Everybody I have played these recordings to has commented how much more natural they sound than commercial recordings, which is a shame, we seem to have gone backwards by recording loads of microphones then cutting and shutting them into a "recording" later.

IME microphone choice and position make the most difference to sound quality, nothing we can buy or do at home can possibly fix a recording with ill-chosen microphone placement IMO.

As others have commented making a recording with a first class microphone from your listening position then playing it back is a salutary experience which shocked me 50 odd years ago and lead to a long learning process, but I am just an amateur who doesn't record much any more.
 

Soniclife

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Yes, I'm a (1). I reserve judgement on the bass compensation because everyone seems so adamant it is necessary but I have a suspicion that this might be partly to do with ported speakers that are near universal, plus my sealed, phase-corrected and time-aligned speakers have wider baffles than modern speakers and maybe all that makes them sound drier towards the low end.

I control the roll-off but nothing else, and they sound good to me - and of course they are therefore 'straight' and and the recording is not being messed about with arbitrarily. What the room does corresponds to what the room would naturally do with that signal - for better or worse.
How good is your room? Have you tried your system in different rooms without changing the roll off?

I do wonder is some of these discussions need more context on what room is being used, if you have a benign room you don't need correction, if you have a problematic room you may do. I wouldn't know how to categorise a room as good or bad, would it simply be decay time?
 

Purité Audio

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I don’t think there is a ‘benign’ room, there are rooms which are less malign than others.
Keith
 

Floyd Toole

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This is a good discussion, but I'd like to get back to where it started, with me saying: "Evidence to date is that in such a situation of superimposed spaces, the larger one wins. In other words, we can make a small room sound much larger, but we cannot make a large room sound small. The fact that "room sound" is largely incoherent, non-minimum phase, reflections makes it easier."

Some of you may know about reverberation enhancement schemes. One that I know well and have experienced in several venues is LARES (Lexicon Acoustic Reverberance Enhancement System), that was created by Dr. David Griesinger, who also designed the Lexicon reverberation units that have been widely used in recordings for decades. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/mbrs/recording_preservation/manuals/Lares Lexicon Acoustic Reverberance Enhancement System.pdf
There are other such systems, and all of them are able quite convincingly to fundamentally alter the reverberation and to some extent therefore, the perceived size of a venue. I have been in a medium sized auditorium, relatively dead for speech intelligibility, in which pressing different buttons on a console changed it to a credible concert hall or even a semblance of a cathedral.

Reverberation is measured as a time domain phenomenon, but in reality, to a listener in the space, sounds arrive from countless directions and times. Naturally, augmenting these requires many mics, processors, amplifiers and loudspeakers. It was first done in Festival Hall in London decades ago (1960s I think), which was widely criticized for being too dead. Clever minds conceived of a solution, and being well aware of human nature, they installed and activated the system over a period of time, working in secrecy. Over time, attendees and music critics noticed the difference, commenting favorably on the halls improved sound, and attributing it to numerous false causes, including a form of "breaking in" :). When all was revealed, it was a shock that electroacoustic enhancement was at work.

There are now several multipurpose halls using these schemes.

Logically, Dr. Griesinger downscaled LARES to LARES LITE for home listening rooms. At Harman we installed it in our very dead home theater. It required only four loudspeakers and mics, a processor and amps. My favorite way of demonstrating its was to allow the audience to acclimatize to the natural acoustics, conversing and listening to a few stereo demonstrations. Then, during a musical selection with significant spatial effect/reverberation I would slowly fade in the LARES sound. It would go unnoticed until I hit the "Pause" control and we heard a decaying reverberation as if we were in the performance space. From then on, any sounds generated within the home theater - shouts, claps, singing, etc. - sounded as though we were in a concert hall-like space. Jaws dropped. Then I would play some close mic'd recordings, which then were heard with the spatial sounds added, or not. It was impressive. One could "design" a listening space and then play whatever reproduced or live sounds one wanted within it. There was at least one other such scaled down system in the marketplace, but they all were expensive and I truly don't know if they still exist. The Lexicon system never became a mass-produced product. Too bad.

So, what does this mean for stereo reproduction? First it means that we must acknowledge that two channels are not sufficient to create a persuasive sense of envelopment. The listening room will inevitably be perceptible, especially in recordings employing close mics and pan potting - i.e. most pop and jazz. More uncorrelated sounds will help, but the only real solution is multichannel, in which long-delayed (say, 30 to 100 ms) sounds can be delivered from directions other than the front. Then, what is heard will be entirely the responsibility of the recording and mastering engineers, their tastes, their skills, and their equipment to process the sounds. But done well it is impressive how convincingly we can forget that we are really in a small room. For me the most impressive demonstration of this ability was an Auro3D immersive music demonstration in which I was "inside" a concert hall and a cathedral, able to walk around much of the listening room without losing the illusion.

Summary: small rooms can indeed be made to sound much larger, but stereo alone cannot do it. Recording engineers are in control and they differ in the illusions they try to create. There is the "artists in the listening room" approach, the "hole in the wall" through which one hears an orchestra in a large space, and the "you are there" approach. The latter one is the least successful one with only two channels.

The most obvious audible "signature" of small rooms is the collection of low frequency resonances. If these are not rendered less audible by the employment of multiple subs and/or equalization nothing else will be completely successful in creating the illusion of very large spaces. Done successfully, this is a substantial aid in "eliminating" the listening room. It works! See Chapter 8 in my book.
 
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pirad

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Are there any reliable statistics on multichannel music produced ?
 

Floyd Toole

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I know of no statistics, but others may have some info. Certainly there are numerous SACD and other "silver disc" versions of multichannel - of varying quality. When I visited McGill University a couple of years ago all of the postgraduate recording (tonmeister) students seemed to be working on multichannel - up to 20 channels - recordings. Two channel stereo was trivial . . .

The problem is delivery and reproduction. It is certainly not something for the mass market, who frequently get stereo wrong, and 5.1 is badly abused. More than that is for enthusiasts, and relatively well-heeled ones at that if the results are to be truly rewarding.

I failed to mention that multichannel upmixing of stereo is worthwhile, but one must find a suitable upmix algorithm. The old Lexicon Logic 7 was excellent, and the Anthem "music" mode is OK. Both pretty much leave the front soundstage alone, adding enveloping information from the surround channels. I have been told that the Auro3D stereo upmix is tasteful. Auro3D was created for music, but is also used for movies - the latter being much simpler as there is no relation to an acoustical reality.
 

pirad

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I like NADs EARS upmix best. It is fairly benign and adds the right amount of ambience through the rear speakers. Having said that I am afraid that multichannel
music has been the great audio hope for the past decades. I have some expectations with the wide Hollywood acceptance of Atmos and its possible effect
on music production, but having in mind DTS 5.1 etc ...
 

Blumlein 88

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I know of no statistics, but others may have some info. Certainly there are numerous SACD and other "silver disc" versions of multichannel - of varying quality. When I visited McGill University a couple of years ago all of the postgraduate recording (tonmeister) students seemed to be working on multichannel - up to 20 channels - recordings. Two channel stereo was trivial . . .

The problem is delivery and reproduction. It is certainly not something for the mass market, who frequently get stereo wrong, and 5.1 is badly abused. More than that is for enthusiasts, and relatively well-heeled ones at that if the results are to be truly rewarding.

I failed to mention that multichannel upmixing of stereo is worthwhile, but one must find a suitable upmix algorithm. The old Lexicon Logic 7 was excellent, and the Anthem "music" mode is OK. Both pretty much leave the front soundstage alone, adding enveloping information from the surround channels. I have been told that the Auro3D stereo upmix is tasteful. Auro3D was created for music, but is also used for movies - the latter being much simpler as there is no relation to an acoustical reality.

I'm not surprised. Started doing amateur recording a few years ago. Found getting good two channel stereo relatively easy. The hard part is getting good musicians and good spaces to record said musicians. Even going with multi-miking of small groups an initial learning curve for pretty good results is not too steep. Beyond that you are departing recording reality and into a creative endeavor.

So multi-channel has become of much more interest to me for what it can do that stereo doesn't. There is little outlet for my recordings however. Few people have good stereo rigs in home and fewer have good mch rigs.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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I know of no statistics, but others may have some info. Certainly there are numerous SACD and other "silver disc" versions of multichannel - of varying quality. When I visited McGill University a couple of years ago all of the postgraduate recording (tonmeister) students seemed to be working on multichannel - up to 20 channels - recordings. Two channel stereo was trivial . . .

The problem is delivery and reproduction. It is certainly not something for the mass market, who frequently get stereo wrong, and 5.1 is badly abused. More than that is for enthusiasts, and relatively well-heeled ones at that if the results are to be truly rewarding.

I failed to mention that multichannel upmixing of stereo is worthwhile, but one must find a suitable upmix algorithm. The old Lexicon Logic 7 was excellent, and the Anthem "music" mode is OK. Both pretty much leave the front soundstage alone, adding enveloping information from the surround channels. I have been told that the Auro3D stereo upmix is tasteful. Auro3D was created for music, but is also used for movies - the latter being much simpler as there is no relation to an acoustical reality.
Dr. Toole - I share your great enthusiasm for Mch sound, and I have been a steadfast listener to it for over a decade now, pretty much to the exclusion of any stereo listening. Fortunately, my musical interests are mainly classical, and the bulk of Mch music releases have been in that genre for a few decades now. I think the reasons are both numerous and clear as to why Mch music releases favor classical.

I would single out two main reasons. One, Mch, much more than stereo, favors capturing the performers within the hall acoustic, including its huge influence on the live listening experience caused by the relatively large venues in which classical music is performed and recorded. Unfortunately, there would seem much less of value in Mch recordings done in relatively small, dead studios or huge live rock concerts with PA systems, etc.

Two, related to that, is the fact that many of us can attend live classical concerts in decent halls to develop a better internal sense of what live music is supposed to sound like. Yes, all halls do not sound exactly alike. But, I think most decent halls used for classical music are more similar than they are different.

The point is your eloquent "circle of confusion" regarding recordings still exists. But, hearing the real thing live can help eliminate some of that confusion by giving us a firmer experiential basis to judge the sound of recordings and reproduction systems. And, not to knock any other music genres or those who prefer them, similar opportunities under decent acoustic conditions are much rarer outside classical music, again unfortunately. But, I do find that well done Mch substantially narrows the gap between my sound at home and my recollection of the sound of live concerts. I say that without any ambiguity or confusion. It's real.

Also, those searching for commercial Mch music recordings should visit the following site which lists virtually every Mch music disc release over the past 2 decades:

https://www.hraudio.net/

However, it should be noted that the biggest proponents of Mch music, mainly small European labels, are beginning to transition increasingly to downloads, sometimes with just a stereo CD disc release but with hirez Mch downloads available at their site.
 

pirad

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The hraudio.net shows the total of 7690 multichannel albums, that’s more than I thought there were. For comparison only Tidal has 50 million tracks in CD quality, say 5 million albums. Eg. last fall all of EMC catalogue was released there, a big bonus for jazz afficionados like me.
 
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March Audio

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So wouldn't not hearing like we do apply in both positions, with flawed mic. pick-up at the listening position being the better choice than flawed pick-up at a non-listening position?
No, because the issue is the excessive pick up of the room refelcted sound. Close miking vastly reduces the pick up of the reflected sound as does the use of cardiod mics. This of course can never be exactly the same as the acoustic processing your brain would do in that acoustic environment, bur we all enjoy the resultant recorded sound.

You can try playing with this yourself with your phone and record sounds in different environments and distances from the source.
 
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Guermantes

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Some of you may know about reverberation enhancement schemes. One that I know well and have experienced in several venues is LARES (Lexicon Acoustic Reverberance Enhancement System), that was created by Dr. David Griesinger, who also designed the Lexicon reverberation units that have been widely used in recordings for decades. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/mbrs/recording_preservation/manuals/Lares Lexicon Acoustic Reverberance Enhancement System.pdf
It's no PCM96, but I do have one of these: https://lexiconpro.com/en/products/mx400xl :)

I know of no statistics, but others may have some info. Certainly there are numerous SACD and other "silver disc" versions of multichannel - of varying quality. When I visited McGill University a couple of years ago all of the postgraduate recording (tonmeister) students seemed to be working on multichannel - up to 20 channels - recordings. Two channel stereo was trivial . . .

Back in the '90s we experimented with the IRCM style of sound diffusion by manually mixing two- or multi-track recordings into installations of many discrete speaker outputs placed around a hall. We even had custom-built "tweeter trees" (yes, tree-like structures made up of tweeter arrays) which concert-goers could walk around. This was for electroacoustic compositions, so I suppose a high degree of synthetic image manipulation was permissable.

I failed to mention that multichannel upmixing of stereo is worthwhile, but one must find a suitable upmix algorithm. The old Lexicon Logic 7 was excellent, and the Anthem "music" mode is OK. Both pretty much leave the front soundstage alone, adding enveloping information from the surround channels. I have been told that the Auro3D stereo upmix is tasteful. Auro3D was created for music, but is also used for movies - the latter being much simpler as there is no relation to an acoustical reality.
The hall models in my Sony AVR are quite effective on some musical material, terrible on others. But I noted that a recently purchased Jordi Savall SACD was upmixed for the multi-channel layer by using a Sony V-77 reverb unit which contained a convolution model of the same hall the original stereo master was recorded in.
 

Cosmik

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An observation I have regarding stereo, and therefore possibly relevant to multichannel:

When I listen to a 'purist' stereo recording with my stereo setup, the side of the room where the speakers are appears to be transformed into a different acoustic space - it is very convincing and compelling, and worth the price of building a decent hi fi system in itself. There is no need for a centre channel because the audio 'scene' is apparently spread out throughout the end of the room with perfect stability and solidity. You can envisage getting up and walking around the individual musicians in some recordings. Turning your head, the illusion seems to be maintained convincingly.

However, it is not, as some people imagine, a 'holodeck' type synthesis of a real space. If you do get up and walk around, the image does not stay stable while you are moving. But when you do stop moving a new, plausible, image appears.

This, it now seems to me, is what should happen with stereo: as you move towards one speaker and away from another dynamically, the inter-speaker time delays shift uniformly for everything in the recording, which is not what would happen in a real 3D scene. But when you stop moving the relative delays between the individual elements in the recording re-assert themselves and a new, different scene appears. But it is not as if you have moved position and are looking at the original scene from a different angle; it is now a somewhat different scene altogether. However, because there are only two speakers, there is still a unique 'solution' to the scene that results in a new, clear, stable image.

With multichannel, am I going to get that stability and clarity of image? Can multiple channels create the stable 'unique solution' that stereo produces? Is the aim to create an impression of a 'holodeck' I can walk around, at the expense perhaps of the exquisite detail of the stereo image? Is it still meant to be enjoyed from a specific, stationary position?

An earlier reference said that surround sound was mainly about incoherent non-minimum phase delayed reflections. Can I just keep my stereo and pipe some delayed AVR 'hall preset' to a few surround speakers and achieve 90% of what multichannel is all about, anyway? :)
 

Frank Dernie

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I bought the Yamaha DSP1 in the 80s. It was impressive and often enjoyable. I stopped using it when one channel of the sister 4-channel amp blew, taking the speaker with it. I haven't used it since, mainly because of the extra speakers and wires required. I now have 2 rear speakers for film watching which I have used with Meridian trifield which works quite well, particularly on Nimbus CDs recorded using the Calrec soundfield mike, as do SACDs played in my Oppo 105.
I guess I am just not as attuned to "imagery" as some people since I have not found this to be compelling.
It could be a subconcious wish not to spend the money and suffer the cabling again though.
 

Wombat

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I bought the Yamaha DSP1 in the 80s. It was impressive and often enjoyable. I stopped using it when one channel of the sister 4-channel amp blew, taking the speaker with it. I haven't used it since, mainly because of the extra speakers and wires required. I now have 2 rear speakers for film watching which I have used with Meridian trifield which works quite well, particularly on Nimbus CDs recorded using the Calrec soundfield mike, as do SACDs played in my Oppo 105.
I guess I am just not as attuned to "imagery" as some people since I have not found this to be compelling.
It could be a subconcious wish not to spend the money and suffer the cabling again though.

Agree on 'imagery'. It is still a fuzzy topic.

The main practical drawback to multi-channel is multiplicity of wiring(aesthetics) and loudspeakers( cost and aesthetics). Then, how many people can be bothered with it? Similar to the old Quadraphonic days. It is a bit like 3D TV, not so convincing.
 

Floyd Toole

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Can I just keep my stereo and pipe some delayed AVR 'hall preset' to a few surround speakers and achieve 90% of what multichannel is all about, anyway?

That is precisely what I describe a carefully chosen upmixer doing - leaving the stereo soundstage alone and adding enveloping information that is deficient in stereo. It is what Lexicon Logic 7 did and my current, temporary, Anthem "music" mode provides. Switching back to stereo collapses the experience into a much smaller, less engaging event. That said, there are some recordings that are better suited for stereo reproduction, mostly because they include artificial spatial processing that interacts badly with the upmixer. Some of the popular upmix algorithms are rather heavy handed, directing too much sound to the surround channels, and distorting the soundstage. I suspect that inexperienced listeners can be impressed, but . . .

The difference between tasteful upmixing and a hall simulation algorithm is that the uncorrelated information that is delivered to the surround channels is that which is in the recording, not something selected by the listener, and created in devices like the Yamaha. That means of course that not all recordings deliver sound to the surrounds. If the original is a close mic'd, pan potted, no reverb recording, it will be presented as a simple stereo soundstage. Good upmixers add delays to the surround signals to separate them from the front soundstage, as happens in real performance venues.

Modern multichannel is not the same as quadraphonics, which I describe in Section15.4 p.405 as an unfortunate misadventure - the result of insufficient psychoacoustic understanding. The channels were in the wrong locations. Added to this was the unfortunate lack of adequate channel separation from the LP sources. I found it very unconvincing, even annoying, but business is business.

BTW, upmixing is not only for the classical repertoire. I have some wonderfully enveloping popular music in my TIDAL playlists, generated quite possibly by the Lexicon professional processor, or the like. There are some creative minds at work in these studio constructs.

Whereas stereo has a sweet "spot", good multichannel allows one to share the experience, if so desired. Increasing the channel count increases the acceptable listening area. However, I understand that a lot of enthusiasts listen only in private, which simplifies the system.
 
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