Flat Frequency Response/Different Sound?

[JJFUSA]

Please forgive me for asking too many questions here, I just want to learn more about sound/devices and this forum is the most professional and reliable among others.

Many times while watching DAC/AMP reviewers, I'm noticing that they almost always talk about coloration/warm/velvet/analytical/clinical etc. sound of the certain devices.

But when I look at the measurements, there are no difference at all, pure flat frequency response from 20Hz to 20KHz.

So how it's even possible to hear different sound signatures if sound outputs of the devices all the same - flat, let's say warm sound means that low frequencies more emphasized than the rest, but if FR is completely flat how come someone could hear warm sound?

For my understanding, FR represents sound signature and if on different devices FR is the same flat, then how reviewers hear warm or clinical or bright or etc. sound?

What am I missing here?

 

[Talisman]

Must be the period.... I'll give you the benefit of good faith.
if they measure the same, they sound the same, whatever the reviewers seemed to hear (I'm talking about electronics like dacs)

 

[fpitas]

Please forgive me for asking too many questions here, I just want to learn more about sound/devices and this forum is the most professional and reliable among others.

Many times while watching DAC/AMP reviewers, I'm noticing that they almost always talk about coloration/warm/velvet/analytical/clinical etc. sound of the certain devices.

But when I look at the measurements, there are no difference at all, pure flat frequency response from 20Hz to 20KHz.

So how it's even possible to hear different sound signatures if sound outputs of the devices all the same - flat, let's say warm sound means that low frequencies more emphasized than the rest, but if FR is completely flat how come someone could hear warm sound?

For my understanding, FR represents sound signature and if on different devices FR is the same flat, then how reviewers hear warm or clinical or bright or etc. sound?

What am I missing here?

What you're most likely missing is that people let their eyes and imagination color sound perception. And frankly, a lot of online reviewers have an agenda, because they make money.

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm noticing that they almost always talk about coloration/warm/velvet/analytical/clinical etc. sound of the certain devices.

Standard "audiophile nonsense" words. And almost never measurements or a scientific-blind listening test to back it up. Almost all DACs will have flat frequency response and low distortion (better than human hearing). Sometimes there is audible noise (hum hiss or whine), and that's about it. If there is noise the reviewer is going to mention it specifically.

See Audiophoolery

 

[JJFUSA]

Must be the period.... I'll give you the benefit of good faith.
if they measure the same, they sound the same, whatever the reviewers seemed to hear (I'm talking about electronics like dacs)

That exactly what I thought initially, knowing the basic physics and a bit of electricity I was confused by the different sound impressions of the same measured DACs.

I would completely understand if they say that about headphones since those are much more volatile and there are always some coloration presents in sounding, but DAC/AMP are different indeed.

 

[JJFUSA]

What you're most likely missing is that people let their eyes and imagination color sound perception. And frankly, a lot of online reviewers have an agenda, because they make money.

Well, that sucks. At least, thanks to this forum and to Amir, we get unbiased reviews, I only wish there are more devices tested, like Moonriver 2 for example (I know Wolf tested it).

 

[JJFUSA]

Standard "audiophile nonsense" words. And almost never measurements or a scientific-blind listening test to back it up. Almost all DACs will have flat frequency response and low distortion (better than human hearing). Sometimes there is audible noise (hum hiss or whine), and that's about it. If there is noise the reviewer is going to mention it specifically.

See Audiophoolery

I see, thank you for clarifying that to me and I guess I got something interesting to read tonight, thanks a lot for the link.

 

[fpitas]

Well, that sucks. At least, thanks to this forum and to Amir, we get unbiased reviews, I only wish there are more devices tested, like Moonriver 2 for example (I know Wolf tested it).

if you send one in, Amir will probably test it.

 

[JJFUSA]

if you send one in, Amir will probably test it.

lol I didn't even get mine yet, it's coming on Friday, I'm looking forward to hear if there is any difference between this little gem and my LG G7 ThinQ (ES9218P), actually that would be a good chance to compare Cirrus Logic vs ESS and see if there are any coloration or other variations in tonality between those chips.

 

[Chrispy]

Long thread on the subject https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-as-transparent-are-that-many-confused.9245/

 

[fieldcar]

actually that would be a good chance to compare Cirrus Logic vs ESS and see if there are any coloration or other variations in tonality between those chips.

Just remember.

• Our auditory memory is at best ~4 seconds
• Higher volume is perceived as higher quality, so voltmeter level matching is required.

I wouldn't bother. I thought I could hear the difference between a topping D10 and a D50s a while back, but the voltage was just higher on one of them.

Also, I can only detect about -39dB of THD on my best day. This number is directly comparable to SINAD.
Find out how well you score:

Listening Test

www.klippel.de

 

[JJFUSA]

Long thread on the subject https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-as-transparent-are-that-many-confused.9245/

I love long reads, thanks for bringing it in, very interesting.

 

[JJFUSA]

Just remember.

• Our auditory memory is at best ~4 seconds
• Higher volume is perceived as higher quality, so voltmeter level matching is required.

I wouldn't bother. I thought I could hear the difference between a topping D10 and a D50s a while back, but the voltage was just higher on one of them.

Also, I can only detect about -39dB of THD on my best day. This number is directly comparable to SINAD.
Find out how well you score:

Listening Test

www.klippel.de

Valid points, thank you.

I certainly can hear a huge difference between my G7 and my ASUS laptop with on-board Realtek sound, I mean the sound from the phone is much more detailed and pure, but from the laptop it's kinda mushy, muddy and much less detailed, I can hear much more in music listening to my phone, and also I noticed that bass goes way deeper on the phone, so in general G7 sounds like a god comparing to Realtek, on the other hand the difference between G7 and Moonriver 2 is less perceivable I suppose, since the level of the dacs are on a par with each other.

 

[fieldcar]

ASUS laptop with on-board Realtek sound

Yeah. Those laptop on-board sound modules suck. I've got a an ASUS TUF book with terrible on-board audio. There's no excuse for it, but they are usually have noise issues with far less power than a $9 apple USB dongle DAC.

 

[JJFUSA]

Yeah. Those laptop on-board sound modules suck. I've got a an ASUS TUF book with terrible on-board audio. There's no excuse for it, but they are usually have noise issues with far less power than a $9 apple USB dongle DAC.

Same here lol, I got TUF A15, so imagine how I'm excited now to upgrade my ears to Moonriver 2, I will completely disable Realtek sound in BIOS and that would also add some performance benefits since on-board sound always brings some lag.

 

[fieldcar]

Same here lol, I got TUF A15, so imagine how I'm excited now to upgrade my ears to Moonriver 2, I will completely disable Realtek sound in BIOS and that would also add some performance benefits since on-board sound always brings some lag.

Heh. Same again. Does yours also have the parasitic battery drain when shut down? It's a great laptop, but man, it has a few really annoying bugs.

I'd guess-timate the headphone jack on my A15 has a pathetic SINAD of 30dB and 5mW @ ~30Ohm. It's so frustratingly bad. This is why I use the apple usb-c dongle dac (99dB SINAD + 31mW@33Ohm) with my smaller headphones and a Sound blaster sxfi dongle for my planar cans if I bring them out on the road.

I'm sure you're going to be really happy with the moonriver 2. I think I see about 140mW @ 32Ohm. Similar to the sxfi, but much better SINAD on the moonriver. It should actually be good enough to not need a desktop stack unless you plan on running some really inefficient cans.

 

[delta76]

Please forgive me for asking too many questions here, I just want to learn more about sound/devices and this forum is the most professional and reliable among others.

Many times while watching DAC/AMP reviewers, I'm noticing that they almost always talk about coloration/warm/velvet/analytical/clinical etc. sound of the certain devices.

But when I look at the measurements, there are no difference at all, pure flat frequency response from 20Hz to 20KHz.

So how it's even possible to hear different sound signatures if sound outputs of the devices all the same - flat, let's say warm sound means that low frequencies more emphasized than the rest, but if FR is completely flat how come someone could hear warm sound?

For my understanding, FR represents sound signature and if on different devices FR is the same flat, then how reviewers hear warm or clinical or bright or etc. sound?

What am I missing here?

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

it was discussed in depth here.

subjective reviewers are almost full of BS. if they say they hear no difference, they can't get views, and they can't get their viewers/readers to buy that product which they would get a commission for

 

[JJFUSA]

Heh. Same again. Does yours also have the parasitic battery drain when shut down? It's a great laptop, but man, it has a few really annoying bugs.

I'd guess-timate the headphone jack on my A15 has a pathetic SINAD of 30dB and 5mW @ ~30Ohm. It's so frustratingly bad. This is why I use the apple usb-c dongle dac (99dB SINAD + 31mW@33Ohm) with my smaller headphones and a Sound blaster sxfi dongle for my planar cans if I bring them out on the road.

I'm sure you're going to be really happy with the moonriver 2. I think I see about 140mW @ 32Ohm. Similar to the sxfi, but much better SINAD on the moonriver. It should actually be good enough to not need a desktop stack unless you plan on running some really inefficient cans.

Exactly, thank you. TUF is an amazing laptop, I'm using it a couple of years already, no issues, all I did is I upgraded RAM to 32GB to disable Paging File that drastically increased performance, so now even monster Star Citizen runs like on butter.

I can't say anything about the battery, since I completely removed mine from the laptop, I use it like a desktop, connected to the plug, but I suppose your laptop suffers from a drain because of hibernation, try to turn it off with the Command Line:

powercfg.exe /hibernate off

As far as I know, Moonriver 2 can go up to 500mW @ 32Ohm on balanced 4.4mm / High Gain, based on the specs:

3.5mm: 2Vrms (High), 1.4Vrms (Low)

4.4mm: 4Vrms (High), 2.8Vrms (Low);

P = V²/R

4²/32 = 0.5W = 500mW

It's more than enough to drive any IEMs, so you're right I wouldn't need anything else considering that I use only IEMs not cans, plus even comparing to the highest tier DAC ES9039PRO Moonriver 2 performs similarly and SMPTE-Ratio even the same with the $1,000 SMSL D400EX:

SMSL D400EX:

https://cdn.l7audiolab.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/1669821872-SMPTE-Ratio.jpg

Moonriver 2:

https://cdn.l7audiolab.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/SMPTE-Ratio-3-1024x820.jpg

This little thing is a powerful monster.

 

[JJFUSA]

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

it was discussed in depth here.

subjective reviewers are almost full of BS. if they say they hear no difference, they can't get views, and they can't get their viewers/readers to buy that product which they would get a commission for

Thank you, great discussion, I read it yesterday, this is sad actually to see how many buyers who have no time/willing to research more get misled by unfair commercial reviews, money talks.

 

[kemmler3D]

To add to the discussion a little: If the FR is flat and the THD isn't insane, any audible differences in the DAC (or amp) usually exist in the listener's mind only, as this thread and others have pointed out.

However, you will probably come across speakers that have "the same FR" that sound different, too. In this case, they actually do sound different. This is (edit: often, in large part but not exclusively) because of "directivity" / "dispersion" which refers to how the FR varies depending on what angle the speaker is facing relative to you and the room.

This is why we look at "spinoramas" which measure the on-axis (facing straight at the speaker) frequency response, as well as off-axis (speaker is angled away from the listener) frequency response. They can be very different and they can vary in complicated ways.

What you hear when you listen to a speaker is a combination of the on- and off-axis measurements. All of the sound from the speaker bounces around the room and some of it reaches your ears. So you really need to see both to get a good idea.

Many times you only get to see the on-axis measurement. This is probably the single most important measurement, but you can't get a good sense of how the speaker REALLY sounds unless you also see several off-axis measurements.

Speaker measurements are both useful, more complicated, and more interesting than DAC or amp measurements. On- and off-axis FR are really only the beginning, but they are the biggest part of the story when it comes to speaker performance.