Fane Sovereign 12-250TC project measurements

[ppataki]

What is the allure of the big full range drivers in comparison to, say, a large coaxial speaker. They obviously take a lot of EQ to tame, so is it just a case of cost or are there other differences that had you preferring a full range driver?

I have not compared them to coaxial speakers so I cannot comment on that
But I can tell you the 'story' how I got here, maybe that helps:
Since 2006 I have had like a dozen of different speakers systems. All of them were multi-way (2-way to 3.5-way), I had cheaper ones (like Logitech cheap) and also more expensive ones (like the Nubert nuVero 140). I had both passive and active ones (like the Nubert nuPro A-300). I have EQ-d all of them either manually or with the help of a DRC like Dirac Live.
I was happy with them, especially with the nuVero 140 - very authorative sound, ruler flat frequency response, etc.
Then one day just on a 'why not' basis I have ordered a pair of passive MixCubes (yes, the 'horrible sound' ones). They indeed sounded extremely horrible - but then I optimized them with Dirac.....and then my jaws dropped on the floor.
It was like the band was playing in the room and I could totally 'see' the instruments, not just hear them. And I could hear instruments not 'just' music anymore.
I have called many of my friends to come over and listen to it to check if I had gone mad but actually all of them had the same epiphany.
Then I got a DIY floorstander from a local Audio Nirvana affiliate here based on the 12" Classic Ferrite drivers - then my jaws dropped to the basement (after optimizing the curves, of course)
Then I had sold everything and started my own DIY journey with 1-way systems (I currently have an MCLA in my living room)
Needless to say, I have no intention to return to multiway systems
To be fair I need to add that this is not for the faint-hearted, it requires a crazy amount of time and a pretty steep learning curve to get familiar with the optimizations - but then...you will be blown away

 

[Newman]

It is indeed a cool project, trying to make a 2022 Ferrari out of a 1930 Massey Ferguson tractor!

But I wouldn't recommend your methodology to anybody. In fact, I would describe it as the shortcut to audio hell, so I'm glad you are enjoying it so much down there! I heard they have wicked party music...

What you want to do is get the on-axis anechoic response fairly flat above the bass region, by measuring it (post #1 and post #2 in this thread are a good guide: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-spinoramas-with-rew-and-vituixcad.21860/), and EQ that to flat, then EQ an in-room bass response at the MLP in the manner you already have, with the room gain applied in the manner you already have, to taste.

Good luck!

 

[voodooless]

It is indeed a cool project, trying to make a 2022 Ferrari out of a 1930 Massey Ferguson tractor!

That isn’t as impossible as you think:

Ferrari Tractors

www.ferraritractor.com

What you want to do is get the on-axis anechoic response fairly flat above the bass region, by measuring it (post #1 and post #2 in this thread are a good guide: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-spinoramas-with-rew-and-vituixcad.21860/), and EQ that to flat, then EQ an in-room bass response at the MLP in the manner you already have, with the room gain applied in the manner you already have, to taste.

Ideally yes, but with drivers like these, there is relatively little off-axis higher up, so also little reflection, making an in-room measurement actually a lot more usable.

 

[Newman]

I think it makes the in-room measurement less usable, because the room reflections are more different to the direct sound.

The whole idea, that one can maybe/sorta get away with making a 'house curve' surrogate for an on-axis measurement correction, is based on the speaker having excellent directivity control.

 

[voodooless]

I think it makes the in-room measurement less usable, because the room reflections are more different to the direct sound.

That's why I asked for off-axis measurements. But also, since the level is lower in general, there is also more masking, making the issue less pronounced.

 

[ppataki]

In fact, I would describe it as the shortcut to audio hell, so I'm glad you are enjoying it so much down there! I heard they have wicked party music...

+ don't forget that hell is full of the best chix!

 

[FeddyLost]

What is the amplification used for these speakers?
For evening listening they will require milliwatts, so you'll probably need something "not PA" for amplification.

 

[ppataki]

What is the amplification used for these speakers?
For evening listening they will require milliwatts, so you'll probably need something "not PA" for amplification.

A pair of Hypex nCore NC250MP
I know it is an overkill but just in case....

 

[FeddyLost]

A pair of Hypex nCore NC250MP
I know it is an overkill but just in case....

So, it's a big project for big room. With such HD graphs and sensitivity.
I've thought few times about PA FRs or coaxes and every time faced the issue of first watt due to small room...

 

[ppataki]

every time faced the issue of first watt due to small room...

Can you please elaborate this, I am not sure I understand what you mean

 

[FeddyLost]

am not sure I understand what you mean

Fane Sovereign have sensitivity of 100db/w@m if their site is correct.
If my distance is 2-2,5 m and typical SPL below 85 Db, so mostly I'll use around 0,1 w of amp power or less. Maybe 0.01w for 75 db.
Standard commercially available solid state amplifier "HD vs power" graph does not look nice at these powers. So, such project will require some tricky amplification if i need some decent result...
And in case of coax you'll need few channels.

 

[ppataki]

Fane Sovereign have sensitivity of 100db/w@m if their site is correct.
If my distance is 2-2,5 m and typical SPL below 85 Db, so mostly I'll use around 0,1 w of amp power or less. Maybe 0.01w for 75 db.
Standard commercially available solid state amplifier "HD vs power" graph does not look nice at these powers. So, such project will require some tricky amplification if i need some decent result...
And in case of coax you'll need few channels.

I get it now, thanks for the clarification
I would take a look at the amps here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlTOYxmPs938gqHjtDABkWS-MApu7uJjzIGnJ2Elm6Y/edit#gid=0
I reckon that a PA5 would be just fine, or an LA90

Also don't forget that very heavy DSP is needed to optimize these kind of drivers. You need to compensate up to even 20dB (but 6dB is definitely a bare minimum) depending on your room
Just FYI with my current MCLA system I need a boost of 22dB on the high end and a boost of 12dB at the low end overall

 

[voodooless]

Fane Sovereign have sensitivity of 100db/w@m if their site is correct.

It's total nonsense It may do 100+ dB at over 1 kHz, but where it counts, down low it > 90 dB above 100 Hz, rising to almost 94 dB at 500 Hz, at least according to simulations. It will go pretty loud though:

The response in the datasheet is highly exaggerated. It also doesn't state at what voltage/wattage it was made (and an almost 1000 liter box was used)?

You just can't beat physics...

Interestingly the 15" version seems to be quite another beast. Its Le is much, much lower, it's 96 dB already at 100 Hz, almost 100 dB at 500 Hz, even though its speced sensitivity is 1 dB lower than the 12".

 

[FeddyLost]

I reckon that a PA5 would be just fine, or an LA90

Maybe. Bench is better, but much more expensive.

It's total nonsense

So maybe we'll need amplifier clear at 0,5W instead of 0,1W ... it's interesting.
Driver itself is pretty cheap.

 

[abdo123]

What is the allure of the big full range drivers in comparison to, say, a large coaxial speaker. They obviously take a lot of EQ to tame, so is it just a case of cost or are there other differences that had you preferring a full range driver?

Large coaxial speakers usually have worse response linearity but better directivity.

So for people that want a good speaker out of the box they should use a full-range driver.

Are there large coaxial speakers that are available to the DIY sphere?

I know you can get an 8-inch KEF Q950 driver via some shady ways but that’s it.

 

[Rednaxela]

@FeddyLost

You may be overthinking all this.

I had my Fanes hooked up to a Sony STR-DB940 receiver and first watt issues really were the least of my worries. I know of one compatriot who uses a pretty regular Marantz NR1603 AVR with Audyssey engaged and is more than happy with the result.

Driver itself is pretty cheap.

Absolutely. For the price of one fifteen you can almost have two twelves and the former were already quite cheap. The fifteens I had were eventually too big for me to continue experimenting with. However the dimensions of the speakers presented here are relatively manageable and they could be worth a little discussion with the local Head of Interior Design. If you have the means to properly EQ you may be able to create something incredibly satisfying for very little money indeed.

They probably tick none of the ASR loudspeaker quality approval boxes, but you know, when I would play Julie London on mine, I'd have the feeling I would just have to stick my head through one of the drivers to be able to see her sing in person. There's a certain appeal to that which seems to make everything else just minor niggles.

YMMV but HTH anyway.

 

[Rednaxela]

Are there large coaxial speakers that are available to the DIY sphere?

Sure.

 

[ppataki]

when I would play Julie London on mine, I'd have the feeling I would just have to stick my head through one of the drivers to be able to see her sing in person. There's a certain appeal to that which seems to make everything else just minor niggles.

I could not agree more; I think you nailed it; this is the whole point of these kind of speakers
If they hook you in, there is no way back

 

[voodooless]

Sure.

Or this:

15HX500 (8Ω) by FaitalPRO

FaitalPRO combined the latest R&D methods and technologies with the most advanced industrial automation techniques and all FaitalPRO drivers are made in Italy with the highest level of quality, consistency and durability.

faitalpro.com

 

[Rednaxela]

Perhaps for the record, the one I linked to was just the first coaxial pro driver brand that sprung to mind. No particular recommendation or anything.