Extremely important choice, can you help?

[Paolino]

Hello everyone, hope you're well and listening to a lot of good music.

I need some advice for production and mixing. At the moment, I own a pair of Bang & Olufsen H6 (I’ve had them for 10 years) and I use an Apogee Duet 2 as my audio interface.

I’d like to upgrade, and I’m torn between getting the renowned Sennheiser HD650 or switching to speakers and getting the Yamaha HS3.

I know that, in theory, speakers are preferable for what I need, but I feel more inclined towards headphones for two reasons:

1. I’ve been extremely accustomed to listening to music on headphones for many years. For me, it’s the norm.


2. At certain times of the day, it would be difficult for me to use speakers.



On the other hand, I already have a pair of headphones that sound quite decent, and speakers would probably be complementary, giving me a fresh perspective. My room is treated with several acoustic panels, so that wouldn’t be an issue.

What do you recommend?

And also, very important question: if I buy the Sennheisers, will I need an amplifier, or is the Apogee Duet 2 enough?

Thanks a lot for your attention, Paolo.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Welcome to ASR. Budget?

Peace.

 

[Paolino]

Hi

Welcome to ASR. Budget?

Peace.

Hi Frantz! Thank a lot for taking the time to answer. Between 200 and 300. I could go 400 if it's REALLY worth it.

 

[Koeitje]

Hi Frantz! Thank a lot for taking the time to answer. Between 200 and 300. I could go 400 if it's REALLY worth it.

Stick with headphones if that is the budget imo.

 

[tccalvin]

Amateur music producer here.

If you have an acoustically treated room, then you owe it to yourself to buy the best speakers you can afford. I don’t really know much about the HS3, but regardless you should go for a pair of speakers with good reviews. If you don’t want to go digging around the site, people here will be able to direct you to a good pair. I personally use the Kali Audio LP6 (150€ each) which are still one of the best options for price vs performance.

You can use the speakers as your main mixing tools for things like instrument placing and eq, and even reverb if your room handles reflections well. Then you can use headphones for monitoring and fine-tuning micro-details like timing, clicks and pops, and reverb amount/quality which are things that can be difficult to hear well when using speakers.

The problem with going full-headphone when mixing is that they will most likely be lacking in spacial imaging (“where” instrument are in a mix) and they will struggle to accurately represent all frequencies, and even more so if your headphone amp doesn’t have a low enough impedance (among other things).

 

[Koeitje]

The problem with going full-headphone when mixing is that they will most likely be lacking in spacial imaging (“where” instrument are in a mix) and they will struggle to accurately represent all frequencies, and even more so if your headphone amp doesn’t have a low enough impedance (among other things).

LP6's will also suffer from this issue. If you want full range you have to add a subwoofer to your budget, if you can't then headphones will more accurately represent the bass.

I agree that in general speakers are preferred, but I'd save up in that case so you are able to include a subwoofer.

 

[Smaestro]

Some thoughts:

I produce and mix exclusively on headphones. I am no Grammy winner but a Grammy nominated mixing engineer has loved my work, so it can definitely be done. But IMO you do need some sort of room virtualiser.

I find that without it, it’s easier to become blind (well.. deaf) fast to imbalanced mixes. I use APL Virtuoso, which will set you back about 150-300 that could also go to better speakers. Less expensive solutions exist, or you could just do without, but it’s something to consider.

Since you have a treated room you can also put that money towards better speakers. But “treated” is a wide term. If your room isn’t treated enough, it will really hold back your mixes. BTW, I don’t really understand why you’d have a treated room but no speakers.

But not being able to use speakers all of the time tells me that you have others around you. Headphones will not only shield them from you, but also shield you from their noise.

I do have tiny Kali LP-UNF for more casual work and for when clients or artists are around.
The main issue with these small monitors is that without a sub they just don’t have proper bass extension. If you need/want to do your own mastering, then you simply need speakers that at the very least can produce a clean fundamental of a low E on bass guitar (44Hz), and play it safe and hope for the best with regards to kick drum rumble.

If you make bass heavy music or EDM I wouldn't try on small monitors, but I’m sure that was clear.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Paolino]

First of all, thanks to everyone for replaying, very very very appreciated.

Some thoughts:

I produce and mix exclusively on headphones. I am no Grammy winner but a Grammy nominated mixing engineer has loved my work, so it can definitely be done. But IMO you do need some sort of room virtualiser.

I find that without it, it’s easier to become blind (well.. deaf) fast to imbalanced mixes. I use APL Virtuoso, which will set you back about 150-300 that could also go to better speakers. Less expensive solutions exist, or you could just do without, but it’s something to consider.

Since you have a treated room you can also put that money towards better speakers. But “treated” is a wide term. If your room isn’t treated enough, it will really hold back your mixes. BTW, I don’t really understand why you’d have a treated room but no speakers.

But not being able to use speakers all of the time tells me that you have others around you. Headphones will not only shield them from you, but also shield you from their noise.

I do have tiny Kali LP-UNF for more casual work and for when clients or artists are around.
The main issue with these small monitors is that without a sub they just don’t have proper bass extension. If you need/want to do your own mastering, then you simply need speakers that at the very least can produce a clean fundamental of a low E on bass guitar (44Hz), and play it safe and hope for the best with regards to kick drum rumble.

If you make bass heavy music or EDM I wouldn't try on small monitors, but I’m sure that was clear.

Hope this helps a bit.

Sorry for asking, but given your nickname, I have to ask—are you Italian? haha

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about that Sub-Bass frequency issue, and I think I can manage it with the headphones I currently have (though I’m not 100% sure, as they’re 10 years old).

I’m considering that if I also had speakers, I’d get two perspectives for mixing, which would make it easier to compare my work with my reference tracks. When using only headphones, it gets trickier because, after a certain amount of time, your brain just stops “listening” in the same way. My current room treatment includes 5 soundproof panels in Rockwool, 100 mm thick. The room is rectangular and quite tall (plus I have a mattress and a closet). It’s not perfect, I know, but I think it should do the job.

On the other hand, if I buy headphones (and maybe add a room virtualizer later), I’m sure I’ll hear all frequencies accurately, but I’d only have one perspective (and honestly, having two perspectives feels important to me). Is APL Virtuoso that good at giving me another perspective?

What do you guys think? I really have no idea.

 

[tccalvin]

I think with a 300-400€ budget we kind of have to manage expectations.
I don’t know much about headphones-only mixing but I do know that results can vary. I have heard that with room emulation software it is recommended to have planar-magnetic headphones that already have a good sound stage to begin with for optimal results (good soundstage often comes at the expense of frequency reproduction accuracy when your budget is limited).
I think you are going to have to give something up, and I agree with you that it’s better to have multiple perspectives when mixing. Remember to also take breaks and refresh your ears from time to time.
For the lack of sub-bass in the speakers (it’s only about <~50hz content on good speakers) you can compensate with headphones and you can get help from your eq plugin’s real-time spectrum analyzer. At least until you can afford a sub-woofer.
Also, you can check your headphones’ bass extension by running a simple tone generator on lower frequencies and seeing if they hold up.

I am from Italy too for what it’s worth.

 

[Smaestro]

Sorry for asking, but given your nickname, I have to ask—are you Italian? haha

No haha, I chose something random and anonymous and this was the first thing that sprang to mind.

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about that Sub-Bass frequency issue, and I think I can manage it with the headphones I currently have (though I’m not 100% sure, as they’re 10 years old).

I’m considering that if I also had speakers, I’d get two perspectives for mixing, which would make it easier to compare my work with my reference tracks. When using only headphones, it gets trickier because, after a certain amount of time, your brain just stops “listening” in the same way. My current room treatment includes 5 soundproof panels in Rockwool, 100 mm thick. The room is rectangular and quite tall (plus I have a mattress and a closet). It’s not perfect, I know, but I think it should do the job.

That actually pretty good, better than 90% of home studios. I agree, you can use speakers in your room and get a different perspective, and check subs and details, on headphones.

You can check how capable your B&O's are with a sine tone generator. https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/#1000.

Be careful for your ears. First set the generator to 1000Hz, put a comfortable volume on, then go lower in frequency. If 40Hz is still audible, that's great. It will probably be a bit lower in volume than 60Hz, but thats because of your ears are less sensitive there. The tone needs to be clean. No higher raspyness or distortion.

If you feel your skull being crushed at 30Hz (feel rather than hear), that's all you need. If you can even feel a slow hammering at 25Hz, then you can even master bass. (IMO, these aren't industry standards or anything, just to give some idea).

On the other hand, if I buy headphones (and maybe add a room virtualizer later), I’m sure I’ll hear all frequencies accurately, but I’d only have one perspective (and honestly, having two perspectives feels important to me). Is APL Virtuoso that good at giving me another perspective?

What do you guys think? I really have no idea.

Both are valid approaches. I think you should trust your gut and follow what's important to you. If that is speakers, go with speakers.

You can always download the demo of APL Virtuoso or any of the other big ones like Sonarworks Virtual Monitoring and Goodhertz Canopener.

SoundID Reference - Virtual monitoring Add-on

Take your headphone mixing to the next level. This add-on delivers the most accurate spatial simulation of stereo studio monitors on your headphones.

www.sonarworks.com

CanOpener Studio, by Goodhertz

Conjure speakers from your headphones.

goodhertz.com

APL VIRTUOSO V2 - The Ultimate Binaural Translator

Transform your headphones into a world-class immersive studio with the new powerful features of VIRTUOSO V2.

apl-hud.com

Other issues to think about are that being headphones-only is also not fully accepted or attractive in the industry. And you can't work with friends or clients unless you have headphones for everyone.

 

[staticV3]

The Yamaha HS3 and HS4 are pretty poor speakers with fundamental design flaws:

Yamaha HS3 리뷰 - Audio-re

2way ported, 77.7 Hz (-6dB)

audiore.kr

Yamaha HS4 리뷰 - Audio-re

2way ported, 77.7 Hz (-6dB)

audiore.kr

They're carried hard by word of mouth and brand recognition.

For 300-400€, one can get competent monitors. See here:

Thomann Aktive Nahfeldmonitore online günstig kaufen bei Thomann

Aktive Nahfeldmonitore + Zubehör online kaufen bei Europas größtem Musikhaus - Schneller Versand, 30 Tage Money-Back und 3 Jahre Thomann Garantie

www.thomann.de

For music production, I'd choose one of these over the HD650 any day.

 

[AnalogSteph]

For 300-400€, one can get competent monitors. See here:
https://www.thomann.de/intl/active_...p=solr&category[]=STMOAN&cme=true&filter=true

FYI, the link doesn't work here.

Some general advice:
1. Avoid 3" class monitors unless you're really short on space. Best bang/buck tends to be the 5" class, although at times there are some rather inexpensive 8" ones as well (they tend to work less well at short distances and have less even dispersion but will deliver lots of level).
2. Opting for a pair of HD560S instead of HD650 would get you at least 90% there on the headphone front and potentially still leave enough budget for some decent monitors, like, say, a pair of KRK RP5 G5, or Mackie MR524 once those are back in, or perhaps Presonus Eris Studio 5 (I think these have a bit of "house sound" but seem to be generally decent and could be a good budget option once somebody has measured them).
3. Both the old and new cans should react well to EQ. It could just be annoying to have both speakers and headphones on the same interface, in which case I might consider getting some sort of dongle business or perhaps using onboard audio for the cans.

 

[DVDdoug]

Here is a collection of excepts about mixing with headphones that I've collected:

This is from Recording Magazine "Readers Submissions" where readers send-in their recordings for evaluation:

As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts. In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story. Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.

And this is from a mixing engineer, also Recording Magazine:

Can I mix on headphones?

No. But in all seriousness, headphones can be a secret weapon and it really doesn’t matter what they sound like…

Over time, after constantly listening back to my work from different studios on those headphones I really started to learn them. They became sort of a compass. Wherever I went… It became a pattern for me to reference these headphones to see if what I was hearing was “right”…

I learned them, I knew them, I trusted them. It didn’t matter whether or not I loved them…

So, can you mix on headphones? Probably. I just think you really need to put some time into learning them first…

This is from Floyd Tool's book, Sound Reproduction

Headphones entertain masses of people. Professionals occasionally mix on them when conditions demand it. Both rely on some connection to sound reproduction, that is, loudspeakers in rooms, because that's how stereo is intended to be heard. Stereo recordings are mixed on loudspeakers.

This is from Ethan Winer's book, The Audio Expert:

(Headphones) are not usually recommended for mixing music because you can hear everything too clearly. This risks making important elements such as the lead vocal too soft in the mix. Mixes made with (headphones) also tend to get too little reverb, because we hear reverb more clearly when music is played directly into your ears than when it's added to natural room ambience...

...It is good practice to verify edits using (headphones) to hear very soft details such as clicks or part of something importing being cut off early.

 

[Paolino]

No haha, I chose something random and anonymous and this was the first thing that sprang to mind.

In italian the translation would be "Not a Master at all" ahahah.

You can check how capable your B&O's are with a sine tone generator. https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/#1000.

I just tried. Usually when mixing, I leave the output of the Apogee at -32 (which is kinda low, can easily hear people talking if close enough). I coul hear till 28hz or something, but the volume compared to when I was at say 500hz, was a lot lower. I could barely perceive it at -32, I needed to push till -20 to hear it and not just perceive it.

If I push the volume up at -5, I can hear till 8hz. I noticed also an imbalance between left and right, after a certain point I could only hear the right (25hz more or less). I also checked, it's the headphones not the ears (I put them in reverse to check lol). The tone was pretty clean all the time.

oth are valid approaches. I think you should trust your gut and follow what's important to you. If that is speakers, go with speakers.

That's what I was thinking, I think you're right and I'll go with speakers. The only doubt I have now is, should I push the volume of the sub bass of the headphones up with an equalizer or something? How do equalize them for a flat response? How do I balance the output of the two channels?

 

[Smaestro]

Here is a collection of excepts about mixing with headphones that I've collected:

This is from Recording Magazine "Readers Submissions" where readers send-in their recordings for evaluation:


And this is from a mixing engineer, also Recording Magazine:


This is from Floyd Tool's book, Sound Reproduction


This is from Ethan Winer's book, The Audio Expert:

Those sources grew up predominantly listening to, and mixing on speakers.

Ethan Winer did most of his studio work in the 70s and 80s. Floyd Toole is most importantly, not a producer or mixing engineer.

There’s a whole generation out there that knows nothing else than headphones, and their opinions weren’t polled.

So let’s balance this out.

https://gearspace.com/board/interviews/1362076-interview-andrew-scheps.html

I do mix in Headphones quite a lot.

Mixing On Headphones

Headphone mixing is becoming a core skill for everyone. We asked some of the biggest names in engineering how they get the best results.

www.soundonsound.com

As freelancers, most mixers I know have spent their careers moving through various studios, and therefore have had to learn to be adaptable. "Engineers, by nature, we have to work under any circumstance and with whatever we have," says Manny Marroquin (Rihanna, Bruno Mars, Kanye West). "So I could adapt to mixing on headphones, if needed."

Much of the diverse career of David Bottrill (Peter Gabriel, Tool, Muse) has been spent in this nomadic lifestyle, leading him to believe that "You just tune yourself to your environment and the tools you have on hand. If a client has a deadline you just have to make it work."

This adaptability has cultivated a resourcefulness in most engineers that I've met, driven by the will to ultimately do whatever is needed to get a job done. Ali Staton (Seal, Madonna, Turin Brakes) exemplifies this in how he's managed to balance his life as a mix engineer with the work he does as Ableton programmer for artists like Madonna, Richard Ashcroft and Snow Patrol. "I did a record with George Ogilvie which started at Real World Studios, but then I had to be in the States with Snow Patrol and Ed Sheeran for nearly five months. That's when I started trying to mix on headphones, because I had to carry on working."

It clearly worked, because Ali ended up mixing part of the album back in his room at Real World Studios, and says: "You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between the headphone and studio mixes, especially now that they're mastered."

 

[Smaestro]

In italian the translation would be "Not a Master at all" ahahah.

Hahaha perfect xD

I just tried. Usually when mixing, I leave the output of the Apogee at -32 (which is kinda low, can easily hear people talking if close enough). I coul hear till 28hz or something, but the volume compared to when I was at say 500hz, was a lot lower. I could barely perceive it at -32, I needed to push till -20 to hear it and not just perceive it.

If I push the volume up at -5, I can hear till 8hz. I noticed also an imbalance between left and right, after a certain point I could only hear the right (25hz more or less). I also checked, it's the headphones not the ears (I put them in reverse to check lol). The tone was pretty clean all the time.

Till 8hz???? Should be impossible, what you are hearing is parts of the headphone resonating in different frequencies. Anyway, there's no need to check below 25Hz.

Working on a low volume is good, just be aware of the Equal-Loudness Contour. I always work with a compensating EQ on my output when working on low volume. You don't have to, but just to be aware, otherwise you'll pump way too much bass into your tracks.

That's what I was thinking, I think you're right and I'll go with speakers. The only doubt I have now is, should I push the volume of the sub bass of the headphones up with an equalizer or something? How do equalize them for a flat response? How do I balance the output of the two channels?

Balance Left/Right
Use an EQ to compensate. So in your DAW, on the output channel (Main/Master/ or Headphone out), put two EQ's, one that does only the left, and the other that only does the right. Depending on your DAW there are EQ's that can do both in one plugin window. Then you use test tones to compensate frequency regions until it sounds and feels equal. To prevent compensating for your hearing keep flipping the headphone around.
You can for example then save this file as a default template, so that everytime you open a new file in your DAW, this EQ is already included.
Example of Left/Right EQ in Ableton:

Boosting subs
So if you want to EQ your headphones, you can, but a lot of headphones distort quite a lot in the subbass area. Boosting that area might/will introduce harmonic distortion, so it might not be worth it. Anyway, I looked at Sonarworks, and they have actually measured the Beoplay H6 2nd generation. If that's yours, you could get that to compensate for your headphones. And then on top of that adjust to any frequency target (Harman) that you like. It's around 100 euro for the software, and 50 for the additional room virtualisation though. Definitely worth the trial.

Alternatively you can:

• Accept the headphones as they are. You have had them for 10 years, so all music you know is ingrained like that. This is a good thing.
• EQ to boost bass, play around with an EQ, until it feels perfect to you on the tracks that you love most in the genre that you make. That way you can get the most out of reference tracks from established artists. You'll need to 'relearn' your headphones and use reference mixes a lot, and this is difficult without experience.
• EQ your new speakers to a perfect response in your room, by measuring and then adjusting. Then adjust your headphones to match your speakers. This is most work, you'll need to get an omnidirectional reference microphone and learn how to make measurements. But it will also have the highest payoff.

But before you go overboard, realistically, you only have to hear the lowest tones of the music that you make. If you sing and play guitar then this doesn't matter much at all.

 

[Paolino]

ma solo essere consapevoli, altrimenti pomperai troppi bassi nelle tue tracce.

This is what usually happens to me: after listening in the car, I have to go back to the computer and turn them down. I listen at a low level to protect my ears and only occasionally turn it up.

Bilanciamento Sinistra/Destra
Usa un EQ per compensare. Quindi nella tua DAW, sul canale di uscita (Main/Master/ o uscita cuffie), metti due EQ, uno che fa solo la sinistra e l'altro che fa solo la destra. A seconda della tua DAW ci sono EQ che possono fare entrambe le cose in una finestra del plugin. Quindi usa toni di prova per compensare le regioni di frequenza finché non suona e si percepisce uguale. Per evitare di compensare per il tuo udito continua a girare le cuffie.
Puoi ad esempio salvare questo file come modello predefinito, in modo che ogni volta che apri un nuovo file nella tua DAW, questo EQ sia già incluso.
Esempio di EQ Sinistra/Destra in Ableton:

I had thought of this solution just five minutes ago, but I wouldn’t have known how to articulate it so well; thank you. My only doubt is: what should I use for test tones? A piano? A basic sine wave?

Potenziamento dei sub
Quindi, se vuoi equalizzare le tue cuffie, puoi farlo, ma molte cuffie distorcono parecchio nell'area dei sub-bassi. Potenziare quell'area potrebbe/introdurrà distorsione armonica, quindi potrebbe non valerne la pena. Comunque, ho guardato Sonarworks, e effettivamente hanno misurato le Beoplay H6 di seconda generazione. Se sono tue, potresti ottenere questo per compensare le tue cuffie. E poi, in aggiunta, regola su qualsiasi target di frequenza (Harman) che ti piace. Sono circa 100 euro per il software e 50 per la virtualizzazione della stanza aggiuntiva. Vale sicuramente la pena di provarlo.

Thank you very much, I’ll give it a try, just as I did with Virtuoso. (I really liked option 22.2 B, but instinctively, I still think I’d prefer trying the speakers for a while).

Accetta le cuffie così come sono. Le hai da 10 anni, quindi tutta la musica che conosci è radicata in questo modo. Questa è una buona cosa.

If I don’t find significant differences after trying the Sonarworks demo, I could go with that. Edit: I checked and I have the first generation, is not supported by Sonarworks.

EQ per potenziare i bassi, gioca con un EQ, finché non ti sembra perfetto per le tracce che ami di più nel genere che crei. In questo modo puoi ottenere il massimo dalle tracce di riferimento di artisti affermati. Dovrai "reimparare" le tue cuffie e usare molto i mix di riferimento, e questo è difficile senza esperienza.

I think it’s easier for me, due to my inexperience, doing harm rather than good.

Equalizza i tuoi nuovi altoparlanti per una risposta perfetta nella tua stanza, misurando e poi regolando. Quindi regola le tue cuffie per adattarle agli altoparlanti. Questo è il lavoro più impegnativo, dovrai procurarti un microfono di riferimento omnidirezionale e imparare a fare le misurazioni. Ma sarà anche il più redditizio.

Do you know of a guide or link on how to do this? I already have an omnidirectional microphone, so I can consider this option. Is it really that much more beneficial than the other options?

 

[staticV3]

FYI, the link doesn't work here.

Here's a screenshot:

 

[Paolino]

Ma prima di esagerare, realisticamente, devi solo sentire i toni più bassi della musica che fai. Se canti e suoni la chitarra, allora questo non ha molta importanza.

I play multiple instruments and I'm actually trying to bring the level up. I want to make the effort, that's why I opened the thread.

 

[LTig]

Usually when mixing, I leave the output of the Apogee at -32 (which is kinda low, can easily hear people talking if close enough). I coul hear till 28hz or something, but the volume compared to when I was at say 500hz, was a lot lower. I could barely perceive it at -32, I needed to push till -20 to hear it and not just perceive it.

If I push the volume up at -5, I can hear till 8hz.

You cannot hear 8 Hz, only feel it. What you hear is audible harmonic distortion (multiples of 8 Hz above 20 Hz, so 24, 32, 40, ... Hz).