Embracing Simplicity in Audio: Anyone Else Skipping Room Correction, Measurement Microphones, and the Like?

[Mean & Green]

where did I say it hasn't?

I'm just merely pointing out that imo it didn't all start from one side as you are implying here.



Imo you throwing in "tried to show us the righteous path" is an example of an antagonistic response that's does not improve the matter!

Fair point, I’ll hold my hands up to that!

 

[Rednaxela]

Read the thread. I’ve directly replied to such quotes.

In that case it’s even easier for you to back up your accusations. It’s your claim remember.

 

[Mart68]

No. Here is a Rauna Freja vs. a Seas 10" sub plus passive radiator. Roughly level matched, same position:
View attachment 330964
Both are dominated by the room.
View attachment 330962

The argument that speakers with weak response don't need consideration of room, or are somehow immune to the room is not correct. In fact, if all I had was a speaker with weak bass like this Rauna, the location I chose here is not ideal. These Rauna need careful placement just like any other speaker.

I'll just reply to this post as a number of people have said the same thing - are we saying that regardless of volume level the speaker will have uneven bass response due entirely to the room? That it will boom at any volume at some bass frequency or frequencies? Or are we talking about something I am not grasping?

(Also I notice in this graph above there is useful output below 30Hz. I was not discussing full range speakers but speakers with no output below 40Hz and later the example introduced of the small two-way. Obviously a speaker with bass response down so low will not work well in all rooms without correction).

 

[MAB]

I'll just reply to this post as a number of people have said the same thing - are we saying that regardless of volume level the speaker will have uneven bass response due entirely to the room? That it will boom at any volume at some bass frequency or frequencies? Or are we talking about something I am not grasping?

Yes, that is a sub with -3dB down at 28 Hz in free space, vs. a Rauna Freja, with notoriously weak bass, both getting dominated by my room at low frequency.

(Also I notice in this graph above there is useful output below 30Hz. I was not discussing full range speakers but speakers with no output below 40Hz and later the example introduced of the small two-way. Obviously a speaker with bass response down so low will not work well in all rooms without correction).

Not quite sure what you mean about 'no output below 40Hz", but the Rauna have very little bass. I think your idea of speakers with no output below 40Hz is not realistic.

 

[Timcognito]

Complex

Simple

Best

I have one of those Sony's and can get FM radio stations from Mendocino and Ft Bragg 150 miles away.

 

[DonR]

I have one of those Sony's and can get FM radio stations from Mendocino and Ft Bragg 150 miles away.

I have the tabletop version XDR-S3HD and it is hands down the best tuner I have. Beats out all the "super" tuners from the 70's and 80's without the need to fiddle around. It is better AND simpler.

 

[Timcognito]

I have the tabletop version XDR-S3HD and it is hands down the best tuner I have. Beats out all the "super" tuners from the 70's and 80'

Mine is XDR-F1HD, interesting.

 

[Geert]

are we saying that regardless of volume level the speaker will have uneven bass response due entirely to the room?

Exactly, and the location of the speaker and listener in that room (with relative to the wavelength of low frequencies not a lot of wiggle room in 10'x10' room). But what might be misleading: since our hearing is less sensitive in the low end at low volumes (Fletcher Munson) you will perceive less boom at low volumes, and at high volumes perception of resonances might be reinforced by furniture, doors, windows, floor boards and other stuff starting to resonate.

Note that the lows in rooms that small are also heavilly influenced by direct reflections (unless you wear your speakers like headphones).

I was not discussing full range speakers but speakers with no output below 40Hz and later the example introduced of the small two-way. Obviously a speaker with bass response down so low will not work well in all rooms without correction).

Booming bass goes up to about 100Hz. In pop and rock it's very often the area around 80Hz, what we refer to as bass, that drives the low end of a song. (40Hz is sub bass). So this is not a large speakers problem only.

 

[Axo1989]

Exactly, and the location of the speaker and listener in that room (with relative to the wavelength of low frequencies not a lot of wiggle room in 10'x10' room). But what might be misleading: since our hearing is less sensitive in the low end at low volumes (Fletcher Munson) you will perceive less boom at low volumes, and at high volumes perception of resonances might be reinforced by furniture, doors, windows, floor boards and other stuff starting to resonate.

Note that the lows in rooms that small are also heavilly influenced by direct reflections (unless you wear your speakers like headphones).

Booming bass goes up to about 100Hz. In pop and rock it's very often the area around 80Hz, what we refer to as bass, that drives the low end of a song. (40Hz is sub bass). So this is not a large speakers problem only.

Yes, there are many variables in play in these scenarios. I've already said I like taking measurements and use DSP EQ, so I'm biased, but I don't find it hard to see different perspectives in this discussion.

For example, going back a few years in my 5 x 7 metre room, the previous small 2.5-way floorstanding speakers received a helpful boost from the second long/axial mode ~50 Hz where they were otherwise lacking. No real issues with boom below 100 Hz. And instead of a problematic peak around 80 Hz, a severe null (mostly mitigated by wider speaker placement subsequently). So from that perspective, room EQ wasn't the answer. But those speakers were a bit too warm in the mid-bass around 150-250 Hz, and had a broad dip around 3 kHz, so I preferred them with correction for those reasons (adding a bit of low-bass extension too). Mostly correcting uneven FR from the speakers though, not the room.

Spoiler: some gratuitous graph-splaining

Note also that I don't have a general reverberation problem. But—no surprise—when I replaced those speakers with larger 4-ways, the helpful 50 Hz reinforcement became an undesirable ~15 dB peak, so a different story.

My point being, there are scenarios/setups where issues benefitting from room EQ won't present strongly, and others where they really do. This will have some influence on people's perspectives on the subject, and the effort/benefit ratios that apply. I certainly experienced the "didn't matter much with smaller speakers" scenario.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

No one here feels that they have superiority other than those who use graphs to set up their rooms.

How else are you going to do it objectively? -By ear?

No. Here is a Rauna Freja vs. a Seas 10" sub plus passive radiator. Roughly level matched, same position:
View attachment 330964
Both are dominated by the room.
View attachment 330962

The argument that speakers with weak response don't need consideration of room, or are somehow immune to the room is not correct. In fact, if all I had was a speaker with weak bass like this Rauna, the location I chose here is not ideal. These Rauna need careful placement just like any other speaker.

It's only true with speakers that dig deep enough. And small ones tend to not go very low.

Also the room mode at low frequencies could even be seen as pleasent at low volume. When you turn it up the small speaker could compress, not adding much whereas the large one would make it a booming hell.

In other words; I still think the rule of thumb that small speakers don't need as much work as large ones hold true.

 

[Geert]

I still think the rule of thumb that small speakers don't need as much work as large ones hold true.

Except for low budget speakers I don't use that rule of thumb because there are lots of small speaker which go as low, or even lower, as much larger speakers. My 6.5" woofer bookshelfs go just as low as a popular B&W 603 tower. What larger speakers often have to offer is higher sensitivity, higher max. volume and lower distortion. On this particular forum I think that's not an unreasonable nuance to make. So in the end we need to compare spec's and measurements of the speakers in question.

 

[DanielT]

No. Here is a Rauna Freja vs. a Seas 10" sub plus passive radiator. Roughly level matched, same position:
View attachment 330964
Both are dominated by the room.
View attachment 330962

The argument that speakers with weak response don't need consideration of room, or are somehow immune to the room is not correct. In fact, if all I had was a speaker with weak bass like this Rauna, the location I chose here is not ideal. These Rauna need careful placement just like any other speaker.

Heh heh. Rauna you say. Okay a little OT. I grew up in the same small town as their designer, Bo Hansson. You're lucky you only have them to carry around and not the Ukko creations by Bo Hansson. I heard the Ukkos at a HiFi fair in 2008. The picture below is from that fair (not taken by me).
Big sound, awesome sound.

They could work at high volume with low distortion. At least that's how I experienced it then. Best sound at that show, but then they were also the only speakers not played in a super small demo room.Plus the only HiFi rig at the fair where the volume was really turned up. And high volume trumps as you know.

Ukko dipole:

To refer to the thread and the room's influence, this is how Bo Hansson's Ukko dipoles are described in a sales text:

Description
Ukko dipole is a so-called eight-beam (I don't know what that means). This means that it radiates in a limited forward and backward lobe. The ultimate solution in the so-called open architecture and difficult room acoustics, as the limited side radiation reduces room impact. The structure consists of two layers of concrete slabs with seven intermediate layers of laminated MDF boards, all pressed together under very high pressure. Together with the element baskets, it gives exceptional rigidity to the baffle and minimum baffle radiation. ..

The controlled directivity means that the sound is "thrown" far, i.e. that you experience the sound equally strongly at longer distances, at the same time early reflexes are minimized as the line sound source responsible for the mid-range treble limits the radiation in height. The high efficiency and power resistance mean that the dipole can also be used in smaller PA contexts.

Opus 3 Ukko Dipol - Ljudshopen

OBS! DEMO EX! HÄMTAS I BUTIK! Ukko Dipol är en s.k. åtta strålad högtalare. Det innebär att den strålar i en begränsad lob framåt och en bakåt. Den ultimata lösningen i s.k. öppen arkitektur och med besvärlig rums akustik, då den begränsade sidostrålningen reducerar rums påverkan. Detta var Bo...

www.ljudshopen.se

I don't know what to say about that sales pitch. Line speakers that go from floor to ceiling can really reduce problems with floor and ceiling reflections. Dipoles themselves and their placement, distance from rear wall is another challenge in itself. It's just not possible to randomly throw a couple of dipoles into a room
and then get superb sound, as the sales text suggests. But with the right placement, it can sound big, awesome and so on.

____

Ove Bo Hansson, born April 6, 1940, died May 20, 2011 in Karlskoga,[1] was a Swedish record producer, designer and entrepreneur.

Hansson, who has long worked with the development of advanced hi-fi equipment, founded and ran during the 1970s the company AudioProdukter in Karlskoga and in the early 1980s together with Lennart Bergstedt and Olle Neckman formed the audio engineering company Rauna with the advanced hi-fi equipment they engineered, such as turntables, amplifiers and cast speakers.

Bo Hansson (producent) – Wikipedia

sv.wikipedia.org

 

[Mart68]

Yes, that is a sub with -3dB down at 28 Hz in free space, vs. a Rauna Freja, with notoriously weak bass, both getting dominated by my room at low frequency.

Not quite sure what you mean about 'no output below 40Hz", but the Rauna have very little bass. I think your idea of speakers with no output below 40Hz is not realistic.

And I'm not sure what you mean by this. Plenty of speakers measured here where output begins to tail off below 100Hz and are doing nothing down at 40Hz

if the speaker is reflex design - as most are - output drops like a stone below the tuning frequency of the port.

 

[Sokel]

As the subject here is simplicity a nice way is to test with big-band mainstream music as the old pros has advised for a long time before REW.

Choose a big band with famously strident sound,like Led Zeppelin and play it.

Does it sound full bodied,non harsh and balanced?Then you're probably lucky.
It doesn't?Start looking at your room and speakers.

These bands (Doors also) are just a victim of slim,small driver speakers just thrown in the most convenient place of a room never intended to sound nice.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Except for low budget speakers I don't use that rule of thumb because there are lots of small speaker which go as low, or even lower, as much larger speakers. My 6.5" woofer bookshelfs go just as low as a popular B&W 603 tower. What larger speakers often have to offer is higher sensitivity, higher max. volume and lower distortion. On this particular forum I think that's not an unreasonable nuance to make. So in the end we need to compare spec's and measurements of the speakers in question.

Some small speakers can go low but not at very high SPL. This of course makes the resonance smaller as less energy is put into it.

 

[Mean & Green]

How else are you going to do it objectively? -By ear?

Incase you haven’t read the thread from the beginning, not everyone has here set up their rooms objectively.

 

[Geert]

Some small speakers can go low but not at very high SPL. This of course makes the resonance smaller as less energy is put into it.

The level of a resonance is relative to the average sound level, so in the end it's just as audible. We already determined room acoustics is totally linear so indepent from sound level.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The level of a resonance is relative to the average sound level, so in the end it's just as audible. We already determined room acoustics is totally linear so indepent from sound level.

I hope we misunderstand each other cause surely a bassline of say 50 Hz, which is the same as an imaginary room peak mode, played at avg. 60 dB wont result in the same as if it's played at 80 dB.

 

[DonR]

Except for low budget speakers I don't use that rule of thumb because there are lots of small speaker which go as low, or even lower, as much larger speakers. My 6.5" woofer bookshelfs go just as low as a popular B&W 603 tower. What larger speakers often have to offer is higher sensitivity, higher max. volume and lower distortion. On this particular forum I think that's not an unreasonable nuance to make. So in the end we need to compare spec's and measurements of the speakers in question.

Objective measurements of the same "family" of speaker appear to bear this out. Smaller speakers have similar FR and directivity but higher distortion, lower sensitivity and lower power handling and often exaggerate flaws found in their bigger siblings.

 

[MAB]

And I'm not sure what you mean by this. Plenty of speakers measured here where output begins to tail off below 100Hz and are doing nothing down at 40Hz

if the speaker is reflex design - as most are - output drops like a stone below the tuning frequency of the port.

The Rauna Freja I showed is a bass reflex with a 5" driver that has extremely limited bass. In fact, it has a reputation for little bass which is why I chose it to demonstrate that even speakers with weak bass are very sensitive to room modes.

In the example, the in-room setup shows two notches in the response greater than 10dB conspire to make a 20dB suckout in bass from ~40Hz to 120Hz. This affects both a subwoofer with 28Hz -3dB down point as well as a Rauna Freja with tiny bass reflex woofer since they both play in the region of the suckout.

This is also pointed out in multiple posts, my measurement just demonstrates what those posters are saying in a real room.
Also, small speakers don't get as boomy as large, but they sure can get their bass eliminated by a room mode. I'm not sure what sounds worse, boomy bass or missing bass, both make a speaker sound bad and neither needs to be tolerated.

In summary: I mean that even a speaker that has limited bass output like a Rauna Freja is subject to room modes; the room modes extend higher in frequency than you are thinking, and a tiny ported speaker with limited bass goes lower than you are thinking. Same as what others are saying, I just added a measurement!