Dynaudio 18s vs sub 6

[FeddyLost]

and I don't understand your point 1

For good sub integration in real room most probably will be required something like delay, notch filters for room resonances and crossover slopes depending on exact situation (i.e. crossover with flexible settings).
If you have big problems with amplification of speakers that can't handle LF, high passing it with anything will help.
But high passing it with integrated sub's crossover is not the best available solution IMO.
Standalone DRC processor with Dirac must handle this much better.

 

[LucreciaBorgia]

OK, I take your argument: Having the signal crossing the HP filter of the sub, then the amplifier, then the filter of the main LS is probably not the best way to ensure signal integrity...
But do the advantages not outweight the disadvantages ?
Eager to have feedback from someone who tried both....

 

[3125b]

Has anyone here experienced different measurements without really being able to distinguish an audible difference?

Well, most music really doesn't have content below 30Hz. There are some songs you can try and sine waves of course.
Try:

That has a lot of energy around 20Hz.

I'm wondering if it will allow me to increase the gain on the Rel to bring up the sub 35hz while smoothing out the 45hz peak.

To a degree, but turning up the level to fill dips will of course limit the maximum SPL. Shouldn't be a problem with those subs in an average sized room. Those 125 and 250Hz dips are probably not really fixable, those nulls can only be somewhat mitigated via speaker placement.

 

[Lord Victor]

Is there a difference beyond cosmetic? It seems the 18s is black only and no grills and the sub 6 is black or white, plus grills for $600 more. Did I miss anything? EDIT: I see they have different presets to pair with other Dynaudio speakers. That is not an issue for me.

I'm very interested in these, as I've been looking for a shallow depth sub for my living room. I could maybe fit a 14" or 15", but the 11" Dynaudio would make fitting it in much easier. The alternative is KEF KC92 or maybe a Neumann KH750, but I prefer the side-firing Dyn or KEF as it will look better in the space.

This is for a 2.1 stereo in the living room, likely to be matched with F226be or F228be or R11 or Aria 9xx.

Thanks for your input!

Marc

If it hasn’t been said yet, I can confirm they’re the same sub, difference is the finish and the pro version doesn’t have the crossover DSP presets for Dynaudios home audio speakers.

 

[Citizen]

Hmmm, thinking of getting one of these in the next few days or so, thing is I have 2x Rel HT1205 at the mo and am wanting a bit more bottom end/better integration with my monitoring set up(this is extensive and can range from a set of AVI ADM 9.1t(my personal faves) to a set of Adam A7x and even mix it up with my least expensive Mission 760ise or a set of Castle Chester/Howard(4x driver quarter wave transmission line floor standers), SD acoustics SD1 and lot of others in between, I like to fix and recondition speakers and have so many close at hand.

Anyway I am looking at the 18s to drop into my main monitoring/listening rig, I am also going to most likely get some Dynaudio BM5 mk3/BM6 to add to my AVI/Adam monitoring set up.

My questions are,

Is it going to live up to two HT1205's for depth, scale and volume, I have them stacked on top of one another in the corner of my room and the really do kick ass, I would say lows are 22hz and volume at 110dbs.

Will the Dynaudio really get to the stated 16hz?

Will it go loud, will it loud be enough for the BM5 mk3's which will hit 118db per pair.

Have heard in this thread that it will go just as deep as a Rel carbon special, that is a might sub, it is also a very expensive sub, top of the rel line up.

My other option in this price bracket is the Rel 1508(used) or the 1510(new), both claim to hit 20hz.

As an outlier different choice the BK Monolith Plus, half the price of the rel or the Dynaudio so the obvious answer is two of them.

 

[FeddyLost]

My questions are,

For sure NO.
They clearly state "Lower Cutoff (Hz @85 dB +/- 3 dB) = 16"
For 2x9" in sealed cab with 500W amp it's correct. For something much louder of course not (because of limiter if designer is competent).
It's a small compact subwoofer. Nothing more. For reference you can read some reviews of another sealed subwoofers, clean 110+ Db@20Hz w/o room gains it's something like huge vented 15".

 

[sabloke]

I use a pair of 18S subs with Heritage Specials and couldn't be happier. The whole system is powered by NAD M33, with subs being connected via RCA, cut at 70Hz and DIRAC corrected. The last thing you want to do is to use sub's internal DSP as it is not good enough for hi-fi - noisy and degrades sound quality significantly. It really sucks! Simply bypass the DSP in your subs to avoid any delays in low frequency output and sound quality degradation. With DSP turned off distance settings are irrelevant. Love these subs as they are fast, go really low and seem to improve the already excellent Heritage Specials.

Waiting to see how good M66 is, might upgrade to that plus an M23 amp sometime next year. Subwoofer control on M66 looks epic, at least on paper.

 

[net-david]

I use a pair of 18S subs with Heritage Specials and couldn't be happier. The whole system is powered by NAD M33, with subs being connected via RCA, cut at 70Hz and DIRAC corrected. The last thing you want to do is to use sub's internal DSP as it is not good enough for hi-fi - noisy and degrades sound quality significantly. It really sucks! Simply bypass the DSP in your subs to avoid any delays in low frequency output and sound quality degradation. With DSP turned off distance settings are irrelevant. Love these subs as they are fast, go really low and seem to improve the already excellent Heritage Specials.

Waiting to see how good M66 is, might upgrade to that plus an M23 amp sometime next year. Subwoofer control on M66 looks epic, at least on paper.

According to the Dynaudio manual, the DSP is always in circuit.

"In order to time-align the subwoofers, the latency of the second subwoofer needs to be accounted for. This is done by
adding 86 cm to the Left Distance and Right Distance setting in the first subwoofer. The distance used in the setting
should be the distance from the listening position to the second subwoofer plus 86 cm. The Subwoofer Distance should
be set as the distance to the first subwoofer."

 

[sabloke]

According to the Dynaudio manual, the DSP is always in circuit.

"In order to time-align the subwoofers, the latency of the second subwoofer needs to be accounted for. This is done by
adding 86 cm to the Left Distance and Right Distance setting in the first subwoofer. The distance used in the setting
should be the distance from the listening position to the second subwoofer plus 86 cm. The Subwoofer Distance should
be set as the distance to the first subwoofer."

From the same manual: "The 18S distance compensation signal processing can only function correctly if the monitors are driven via the subwoofer outputs." Not my case, I drive the subs and speakers directly from M33.

 

[net-david]

From the same manual: "The 18S distance compensation signal processing can only function correctly if the monitors are driven via the subwoofer outputs." Not my case, I drive the subs and speakers directly from M33.

Yes, the DSP is always affecting the subs. In your case it is not affecting the monitors. If you are not compensating for the subs DSP latency by also delaying your monitors, then the subs are lagging behind monitors, unless you can physically arrange the subs to be closer to the listening position than the monitors.

 

[sabloke]

Ok, you're right. There seems to be a 2.5ms delay in the subwoofer, equivalent to 86cm. My speakers are 2.3m from my listening position and the subwoofers about 40cm closer. I tested, can't hear any difference between subs being right near the speakers of some 80cm in front of them. Perhaps 2.5ms is not enough to matter that much.

Can't wait to upgrade to M66 as that one can tune subwoofer not only in frequency but also in the time domain.

18S

6moons.com

 

[thommy]

Maybe somebody can answer my question. My friend has bought dynaudio sub 6. It has to be connected between preamp and main amp. The way I see it is that the sub must have ADC and DAC since it uses DSP for parametric EQ, delay and adjustable low and high pass filter. So it converts full signal range, processes it and, after pass filter, feeds the speakers. That means that the sound depends completely on dynaudio DAC quality and not on main dac (accuphase E-5000 with integrated dac). If so, it makes no sense to me to invest in expensive main dac. Am I right or there's something I don't know. Thanks in advance.

 

[sabloke]

The sub DAC/DSP is not good enough for hi-fi as it is noisy and degrades sound quality significantly, therefore he should avoid passing signal to the amp through it. Simply connect the sub separately to the preamp and use another preamp output to the amp.

 

[Count Arthur]

The sub DAC/DSP is not good enough for hi-fi

That's news to me. Maybe it's not good enough for pro audio either.

Have you any proof of this, have you tested it, properly, or is it in reality just an unfounded opinion?

Remember, much of the music in your collection has likely been through several lowly pro audio ADCs and DACs before it got to your Hi-Fi.

 

[sabloke]

That's news to me. Maybe it's not good enough for pro audio either.

Have you any proof of this, have you tested it, properly, or is it in reality just an unfounded opinion?

Remember, much of the music in your collection has likely been through several lowly pro audio ADCs and DACs before it got to your Hi-Fi.

Pro audio users would ignore their speakers hissing, surely. I'm not going to put up with it after spending on Dynaudio Heritage speakers and reasonably expensive separates. i have run the amps through the subs (got two 18S by the way) and directly from the preamp and the difference in sound quality, background noise and imaging is night and day.

 

[net-david]

Pro audio users would ignore their speakers hissing, surely. I'm not going to put up with it after spending on Dynaudio Heritage speakers and reasonably expensive separates. i have run the amps through the subs (got two 18S by the way) and directly from the preamp and the difference in sound quality, background noise and imaging is night and day.

I had no problems with hissing using my Heritage Specials and McIntosh MC312. And that was with two 18s in series per Connection Scheme 2 in the user manual:

So, from the output of my Mac C47 preamp, into one 18S AD/DA, out to the other 18S AD/DA, and then into my MC312 amp. Worked fine and sounded great, I only changed it because I was able to get more control using my miniDSP SHD.

How are you handling the latency of the DSP in the Dynaudio subs when running directly from the preamp?

 

[net-david]

Maybe somebody can answer my question. My friend has bought dynaudio sub 6. It has to be connected between preamp and main amp. The way I see it is that the sub must have ADC and DAC since it uses DSP for parametric EQ, delay and adjustable low and high pass filter. So it converts full signal range, processes it and, after pass filter, feeds the speakers. That means that the sound depends completely on dynaudio DAC quality and not on main dac (accuphase E-5000 with integrated dac). If so, it makes no sense to me to invest in expensive main dac. Am I right or there's something I don't know. Thanks in advance.

Your system is only as good as it's weakest link, so you won't get the full benefit of a super high end DAC. But also remember garbage in = garbage out, so you do want a good signal going into the subs to get the best signal you can out.

And to confirm, the Dynaudio 18S/Sub 6 do have ADC>DSP>DAC between the inputs and outputs.

 

[thommy]

OK guys, this is the answer from the Dynaudio support:
"Indeed the Sub 6 has ADC and DAC , but we are confident that our converters are of a very high quality and will not affect the signal. You still need a DAC to feed a quality analog signal to the SUB 6. You can also choose to feed the main speakers and the SUB 6 separately (if our DAC has separate outputs to MAIN speakers and to SUB. When running the Sub and the Speakers in a parallel mode, you won't be able to use the distance parameters of the SUB 6 that can align the SUB with the main speakers, unless the SUB 6 is placed closer to the listening position."

 

[Count Arthur]

My current system is PC -> USB -> RME DAC -> XLR -> Dynauadio 18S -> XLR -> Neuman KH150

No hiss whatsoever.

My previous Dynaudio Core 7 monitors had a little bit of hiss at the default setting, but a slight reduction to the gain setting on the monitors made that inaudible at further than a few inches from the tweeter.

I know some people have issues with hiss on some active monitors, according to some comments on this forum, but it would seem that it's not a universal problem and some are better than others, but I don't think it's attributable to the sub - at least not in my case.

I also have some iLoad Micro monitors connected to the the RME DACs RCA outputs, that I use when I'm just listening to news, podcasts, etc.. These had a slight hiss that I could hear from my listening position, but reducing the volume on the monitors themselves fixed that, much like the Core 7s.

 

[sabloke]

How are you handling the latency of the DSP in the Dynaudio subs when running directly from the preamp?

I use Roon to delay my speakers 2.5ms as that's the minimum delay indicated by Dynaudio when no subwoofer DSP setting is in use. Don't think that matters much at all anyway. Since last month I have downsized my system to one box, a NAD Master M33, that allows me to control the subwoofers crossover in BluOS and the overall sound via Dirac Live. I have absolutely no need to use subwoofer DSP. Still love 18S though as they go really low and they're fast, too.

The Purify Eigentakt power modules in the M33 are stupendously clean. With music paused and volumed cranked at maximum, there's absolutely no sound in the Heritage' tweeters. I have never seen an amp like this, a quiet beast that can pump 380W into 4 Ohms.