Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Wombat]

"Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously."
Just pulling your leg my friend, you weren't supposed to take that seriously.

The wink emoji is useful at times.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What your experiment proved is that this particular AD/DA procedure held up the perceived quality down to 8th generation. Not that the process is lossless or best possible. That's the job for any pro equipment: make the perceived quality good enough (not the best possible) through many generations in a production.
I understand you did not compare different AD/DA technologies, like a phone DAC to a Mytek. Or delta-sigma to multibit.

Never said it was lossless. For once thru playback it is best possible, because the effects are below audible detection. Nothing of higher fidelity will sound different. I also have done similar things with phone DACs and laptops.

 

[pirad]

Never said it was lossless. For once thru playback it is best possible, because the effects are below audible detection. Nothing of higher fidelity will sound different. I also have done similar things with phone DACs and laptops.

From the fact that noise build-up over generations was not perceptible does not follow that the original noise level could not have been differentiated perceptually from that of other devices. Say you do SFX generations on standard definition video. The perceived quality will hold up.
But if you compare with today’s HD or UHD the difference will be obvious

 

[fredoamigo]

back to the 8Cs with dsp?
yesterday our friend oivavoi gave a link on a very interesting company hedd audio (ex adam audio )on the very complete site there is a blog with a very interesting article on the DSP (below) what do you think? What do you say to the conclusion?

To DSP or not to DSP – that is the question http://www.hedd.audio/en/dsp-not-dsp/

 

[pirad]

back to the 8Cs with dsp?
yesterday our friend oivavoi gave a link on a very interesting company hedd audio (ex adam audio )on the very complete site there is a blog with a very interesting article on the DSP (below) what do you think? What do you say to the conclusion?

To DSP or not to DSP – that is the question http://www.hedd.audio/en/dsp-not-dsp/

Good article. It scientifically describes my lay experience. I even understood the Fast Fourier Transform section! And they apparently answered my prayer from post #381 for a format agnostic AD/DA! I have some Adams in my day job and might get this Hedd thing too.

 

[oivavoi]

back to the 8Cs with dsp?
yesterday our friend oivavoi gave a link on a very interesting company hedd audio (ex adam audio )on the very complete site there is a blog with a very interesting article on the DSP (below) what do you think? What do you say to the conclusion?

To DSP or not to DSP – that is the question http://www.hedd.audio/en/dsp-not-dsp/

Hmm.... Have they changed their mind lately, since the publication of that article? Now they offer a computer plugin which uses DSP to "linearize" their speakers, well described here: http://www.hedd.audio/en/hedd-lineariser/

I think it's important to keep in mind that manufacturers usually keep doing what they have been doing, because that's what they really know how to do. Most car makers keep on making primarily fossil cars, even though it's clear to everybody that electric vehicles are the future. But EVs require a completely different skillset, which can be difficult for legacy carmakers to acquire.

Similarly, to make DSP speakers requires skills in not only acoustic speaker design, but also software and computer stuff. It seems to me that HEDD audio - created by an industry veteran who has been making excellent analog monitors for a long time - has kept on doing what they really know how to do, to make cracking analog monitors. Still, they have begun to offer the DSP plugin as an option these days, and actually seem to recommend it.

One may argue, in fact, that HEDD's way of doing it - DSP linearization by external computer software, not by an inbuilt mini-computer - is more future proof than the way of D&D and Kii, which may be more prone to computer failure and lack of support in the long run.

 

[pirad]

One may argue, in fact, that HEDD's way of doing it - DSP linearization by external computer software, not by an inbuilt mini-computer - is more future proof than the way of D&D and Kii, which may be more prone to computer failure and lack of support in the long run.

It can also be of a higher quality.
There is another good article there:
http://www.hedd.audio/en/find-better-studio-monitor/

 

[Wombat]

Be wary of what you read about products(or anything) on .com sites.

 

[pirad]

Like ASR.com?

 

[Wombat]

Like ASR.com?

Most definitely.

 

[fredoamigo]

Hmm.... Have they changed their mind lately, since the publication of that article? Now they offer a computer plugin which uses DSP to "linearize" their speakers, well described here: http://www.hedd.audio/en/hedd-lineariser/

I think it's important to keep in mind that manufacturers usually keep doing what they have been doing, because that's what they really know how to do. Most car makers keep on making primarily fossil cars, even though it's clear to everybody that electric vehicles are the future. But EVs require a completely different skillset, which can be difficult for legacy carmakers to acquire.

Similarly, to make DSP speakers requires skills in not only acoustic speaker design, but also software and computer stuff. It seems to me that HEDD audio - created by an industry veteran who has been making excellent analog monitors for a long time - has kept on doing what they really know how to do, to make cracking analog monitors. Still, they have begun to offer the DSP plugin as an option these days, and actually seem to recommend it.

One may argue, in fact, that HEDD's way of doing it - DSP linearization by external computer software, not by an inbuilt mini-computer - is more future proof than the way of D&D and Kii, which may be more prone to computer failure and lack of support in the long run.

what hedd audio has chosen to do today may be for economic or marketing reasons, but does not solve the problem or rather does not answer the question .

the question and to know if the double or triple conversions according to whether one attacks the dsp in analog or digital can harm the quality of the signal?
it says""

"" in most cases two additional A/D or D/A conversions, sound quality is affected""
are there any measures? tests?

other questions? how does the 8c internal dsp not generate noise on the signal? with everything inside (power supply, etc etc)

again, are there any measures? in the absence of proof doubt is permitted.


fred

 

[oivavoi]

what hedd audio has chosen to do today may be for economic or marketing reasons, but does not solve the problem or rather does not answer the question .

the question and to know if the double or triple conversions according to whether one attacks the dsp in analog or digital can harm the quality of the signal?
it says""

"" in most cases two additional A/D or D/A conversions, sound quality is affected""
are there any measures? tests?

other questions? how does the 8c internal dsp not generate noise on the signal? with everything inside (power supply, etc etc)

again, are there any measures? in the absence of proof doubt is permitted.

fred

Sure, doubt is always permitted! As to the A/D and D/A conversions... I don't think it's much of a problem. Most people today use digital sources. One can send the digital signal directly to the 8Cs, that's what I do. So then the only conversion becomes the digital to analog conversion after the DSP inside the 8C. A digital to analog conversion happens in any case. The only question then becomes whether the dac inside the 8Cs is of worse quality that what one could bring to the table oneself. I don't think so. As said, measurements of modern DACs, even smart phones, are startingly good. If there are differences, it's very subtle. So this is not something I would worry about.

Noise etc: I'm very sensitive to noise. I like stuff that is dead quiet. With electronics, from lamps to computers to refrigerators, I always choose products which make absolutely no noise. And the 8Cs seem very quiet to me. With the gain at -10 decibel (fairly loud), I can hear a low hiss when I put my ear 30 cm away, and nothing farther away. With the gain at -20 decibel (normal listening for me), I need to move my ear as close as 15 cm from the tweeter to hear anything. With the gain at -25, I can't hear it at all.

But in order not to appear too much as a fanboy here: It doesn't mean that the Dutch & Dutch solution is without problems or challenges. Having onboard DSP can potentially be a challenge long-term. In my experience, all computers die at some point (ok, not all computers, I still have an old Thinkpad from 2001 running on a light-weight Linux distro which works like a charm, but that's the exception). Will there be anybody around 10 years from now to fix any problems that arise? I hope so (and think so), but I can't be sure. That's the risk when buying a product from an upstart company like Dutch & Dutch. So there are definitely potential things to think about before buying a product like this. But I would say that the quality of the DAC conversion or noise from the DSP (or similar stuff) are not the things one needs to worry about.

 

[fredoamigo]

Noise etc: I'm very sensitive to noise. I like stuff that is dead quiet. With electronics, from lamps to computers to refrigerators, I always choose products which make absolutely no noise. And the 8Cs seem very quiet to me. With the gain at -10 decibel (fairly loud), I can hear a low hiss when I put my ear 30 cm away, and nothing farther away. With the gain at -20 decibel (normal listening for me), I need to move my ear as close as 15 cm from the tweeter to hear anything. With the gain at -25, I can't hear it at all.

when I was talking about noise I was talking about electrical insulation not fan noise or db .

amirm here on another wire says "You may have the best DAC clock in the world, but if you let the noise bleed into its power supply or even couple it through the air, you always end up with noise and distortion on the output of your DAC"

 

[oivavoi]

when I was talking about noise I was talking about electrical insulation not fan noise or db .

amir here on another wire says "You may have the best DAC clock in the world, but if you let the noise bleed into its power supply or even couple it through the air, you always end up with noise and distortion on the output of your DAC"

Ok, I understand. Unfortunately there will be no way of measuring that, as the only "output" from the digital or analog inputs of the 8Cs is the actual sound waves generated by the speakers. And then one will measure much more than the electronics, one will measure how the speaker performs as a total system.

Anyway: I wouldn't worry too much about this. With the D&D, the total system can be measured. Which means THD, IMD, frequency linearity, max SPL, and all that jazz. And ultimately, that's what matters, the response of the system as a whole, not the performance of the individual components. I'm pretty sure we will see independent technical reviews with that kind of measurements some months from now. My subjective listening tells me that those measurements will be spectacular. But we'll just have to wait for the reviews to know for sure!

 

[fredoamigo]

thank you for your answer even if there is still doubt, this morning I had naively hoped, that someone here would take it away from me .

 

[oivavoi]

thank you for your answer even if there is still doubt, this morning I had naively hoped, that someone here would take it away from me .

Yeah, I also think it would be good if someone from Dutch & Dutch joined the thread with some answers and clarifications. I'm pretty sure they will answer during the week though. So:

 

[pirad]

Most people today use digital sources. One can send the digital signal directly to the 8Cs, that's what I do.

It would be rare that DSP works directly on the original source data stream. Sampling/depth will most likely be different.

 

[oivavoi]

It would be rare that DSP works directly on the original source data stream. Sampling/depth will most likely be different.

That's true. There is almost certainly some upsampling being done. My point is just that there is no extra AD conversion when one does it like this.

 

[pirad]

the question and to know if the double or triple conversions according to whether one attacks the dsp in analog or digital can harm the quality of the signal?
it says""
"" in most cases two additional A/D or D/A conversions, sound quality is affected""
are there any measures? tests?
fred

Best to ask pros who make a living using converters. Go to Gearslutz and search "d/a a/d converters shootout".
Here's one thread. But read several to get an idea.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-...6-cheap-vs-expensive-converters-shootout.html

 

[Dialectic]

Typically you need to spend $1000 per one channel of good conversion.

More nonsense.

Ok, I'm hiding ignored content again.