Dutch&Dutch 8C /Genelec 8351b and Amphion something or other.

[Purité Audio]

Hello all,

The pictures Keith posted are from my studio space where the tests have been conducted. Here follows a review of the experience:

So I’ve been searching for something to improve upon or add to my current set of monitors which include: Genelec 8351A with 7360 Sub, Amphion Two18s with Amp700, Yamaha NS10M with Bryston 4B-ST - pretty (industry) standard studio fare.

To preface, back in 2018 I had already done a shootout of the Kii Audio Three vs Genelec 8351 vs ATC SCM45A Pro, and ended up opting for the Genelec system; however the Dutch & Dutch 8c have always piqued my interest and I just had to scratch that itch, which is why I got in contact with Keith @ Purite Audio.

My first experience with the D&D 8c was at a listening session held at Keith's. They were in set up in free space mode, on excellent Mesanovic decouplers and with no DSP on.

After acclimatising myself with a few reference tracks, my initial thoughts were that they were annoyingly amazing! The clarity, smoothness and soundstage of the 8c was seductive and evocative, triggering an immediate compulsion of wanting to listen to all of one's favourite records and repertoire all over again. I would have preferred that they weren't that good so I could return contently to my existing setup, however that well-known audiophile sensation of discovering and hearing new things in material that you thought you knew intimately was in full effect.

There was now only one logical step - demo them in my own environment and shoot them out against my existing setup, so I contacted Keith the very next day and had them bought over and installed.

Due to the tight space on the desk bridge, the best option to compare the soundstage was to arrange the 8351 and 8c in a makeshift line array. (Putting the 8351s inside where the Amphions were may have skewed this test.)

Yes, we were aware of the fact that the cardioid apertures might not fully work on the side that was right up against the Two18s, however we decided to crack on with initial tests knowing that the Amphions could easily be removed later to reveal further improvementsw.

Firstly, the Genelecs were calibrated in its new position via GLM; then onto the 8c’s, which took slightly more time as REW was not communicating properly with them. In the end, we had to input the EQ filters manually via the Ascend app (only a few attenuations up to the Schroeder frequency of the room).

After some SPL level matching calibration and FR measurements (attached below), it was finally time to listen to them in situ and off we went with the reference playlist.

Obviously due to the placement & room treatment, the 8c’s did appear different than when they were at Keiths, but as the playlist rolled on, that seductive & emotive quality of the 8c’s became apparent again.

Switching to the Genelecs (via the Grace Audio m905 monitor controller that Keith was mightily impressed with), the soundstage was actually on par and since the 8351 & 7360 were re-calibrated via GLM, the low end did seem fuller & tighter.

Comparing to the Amphions, which uses SEAS tweeters like the 8c, there were actually some similarities in the smooth, slightly softer high end. This caused the 8351's tweeters to sound, in my own words “brittle" in comparison, however I will caveat that the Genelecs did sound off and phasey due to their new high position, and didn't seem to be performing in their best light.

Since having them for around a week, I've conducted more tests including:

• Positioning in free space for the cardioid apertures on the side to fully engage
• AES vs Analog feed
• With/without DSP engaged
• BACCH Plugin
• Linear vs Low latency mode
• Real-time tracking
• Working on real-world projects
• Delivering resulting audio/music to clients

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My conclusions are as follows:

The 8c’s ARE remarkable (see what I did there GS fans), they are in fact astonishing and evocative to listen to music through… There is no BUT per se; I would happily purchase them for my listening room, end of. (The only slight downside would be that the DSP is a faff to set up and calibrate, especially when REW integration is not working or the firmware/app is experiencing issues).

My requirements though are for the studio environment and engineering side of music, where translation is the name of the game.

For this, I do prefer my current Genelec system along with the various other monitors in my arsenal: Amphion Two18, Yamaha NS-10M, Auratone 5c, Fostex 6301, so I can flick between these various ‘sonic lenses’.

To further this analogy; with the Genelec system, I have a clean surgical lens vs the 8c which feel like tinted designer glasses. The Amphions, which are unremarkable according to Keith, are exactly that! That’s their purpose; just as NS-10M bookshelves and 5c grot boxes are - they all have their place in the toolbox.

Incidentally, the upgrade route I am now considering is to move up to 8361s and possibly pair them with W371s which offer a fuller range cardioid dispersion, along with the excellent GLM system and seamless integration should I ever need to go surround/Atmos.

If you’ve made it this far, thank you for indulging in my audio babble and happy listening, whatever you have!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR - One is a great for making music on; the other is great for consuming said music on.

P.S. Special thanks to Keith @ Purite Audio for his time, candour & knowledge. We had a great time geeking out over a few afternoons.

It was an absolute pleasure to meet you, I can’t help thinking though if you had only turned your entire room through 90 degrees…
Very Best,
Keith

 

[Pearljam5000]

The Genelec tweeter/highs are responsible for the love / hate relationship people have with the Genelec sound , just like the Focal beryllium .
After I got used to their sound , other monitors just sounded dark or rolled off to me .

 

[Purité Audio]

I don't believe it is their treble per se but their overall balance, they are just a little more horizontally ‘flat’ than say the D&D.
It was similar with the kiis which always sounded a little thin in comparison but if you adjusted either or both speakers they could sound much more similar probably no more than 1.5dB.
Keith

 

[goat76]

It was an absolute pleasure to meet you, I can’t help thinking though if you had only turned your entire room through 90 degrees…
Very Best,
Keith

What was problematic with the orientation of the setup, and do you mean that a change would help the 8C more than it would help the other speakers in the test?

 

[Purité Audio]

D&D, Kii too recommend leaving 30cm free space around the sides of the speaker so that the cardioid response can form so having the Amphions pressed tightly wasn’t ideal, but Charlie is pressed for space and he did try an alternative set-up with the 8Cs more optimally positioned.
Speaker ‘shoot outs’ are enjoyable, this was Gen 8351B plus 15” Gen sub, versus D&D 8C versus Hedd ‘main towers’.

Keith

 

[Pearljam5000]

D&D, Kii too recommend leaving 30cm free space around the sides of the speaker so that the cardioid response can form so having the Amphions pressed tightly wasn’t ideal, but Charlie is pressed for space and he did try an alternative set-up with the 8Cs more optimally positioned.
Speaker ‘shoot outs’ are enjoyable, this was Gen 8351B plus 15” Gen sub, versus D&D 8C versus Hedd ‘main towers’.View attachment 347745
Keith

Who's the winner ?

 

[Purité Audio]

Who's the winner ?

You can’t really tell from the photograph but that room was massive, a converted stately home, also the customer sat a long way away, on that day the Hedd’s had the necessary displacement with their 16x8” woofers.
Keith

 

[DSJR]

Having three pairs of speakers set like that really is going to dilute the performance no end as the non-playing models join in... No, I'm NOT spouting Linn bullshit as it happened to me when our precious hard won 'single speaker (pair) dem room' was given over to a wall of speakers and anything over two pairs just ruined the sound of the speakers playing. Even pulling the playing pair out in front didn't really help sadly. I left there shortly after as it was impossible to work with now such a bland sound.

 

[goat76]

To further this analogy; with the Genelec system, I have a clean surgical lens vs the 8c which feel like tinted designer glasses. The Amphions, which are unremarkable according to Keith, are exactly that! That’s their purpose; just as NS-10M bookshelves and 5c grot boxes are - they all have their place in the toolbox.

So you found the D&D 8C to be a “fun” sounding speaker with a somewhat colored sound in comparison with the Genelecs. Is that mostly because you are acclimated to the sound of the Genelec, or do you think you would have problem getting the mixes to translate using the 8C?

 

[Purité Audio]

Having three pairs of speakers set like that really is going to dilute the performance no end as the non-playing models join in... No, I'm NOT spouting Linn bullshit as it happened to me when our precious hard won 'single speaker (pair) dem room' was given over to a wall of speakers and anything over two pairs just ruined the sound of the speakers playing. Even pulling the playing pair out in front didn't really help sadly. I left there shortly after as it was impossible to work with now such a bland sound.

Coming from the man who invented the Linn dealers ‘foot tap’!
Seriously no different from having a piece of furniture there, I suppose you took your digital watch off as well?
Keith

 

[DSJR]

Coming from the man who invented the Linn dealers ‘foot tap’!
Seriously no different from having a piece of furniture there, I suppose you took your digital watch off as well?
Keith

I invented nothing - and always sang or hummed along rather than tapped my feet, so there!!! I never had a digital watch, so that crap never applied to me personally.

Seriously, my little tale above was repeatable and really smothered the refinements of a better speaker, dumbing down said 'better' model to the level of a cheap box and making me very sad when I tried to demonstrate under such conditions. Furniture between the speakers ain't a good move either - and I'm saying that with a glass fronted wooden 'TV Cabinet' between my boxes which are two feet or so away each side - can't change that so tolerating regardless.

The better you get the sound in your dem room(s), the easier it'll be to sell speakers, but then I'm sure you know that

 

[MKR]

I do not recall seeing that downward tilt in the upper FR of the 8C in other measurements. Certainly that would likely explain the difference heard vs Genelec which clearly is flatter than the 8C. But given the adustment ability of the 8C could you not change this to in fact match the Genelec?

Regardless, I have heard the 8361 and 8C and effectively came to same conclusion. The 8361 sounded thin and lifeless, even I would say fatiguing (no way I could listen to that on daily basis). It simply did not sound real. If every live concert sounded like that, I would never go to concerts. But with the 8C, as was already stated, sounds like music, intoxicating music … in almost every case I was transported to the venue (I have experienced same with small handful of other speakers, but definitely not the Genelecs ). At the same time I observed no lack of detail in the upper freq of the 8C, it was all there.

 

[Tenku]

So you found the D&D 8C to be a “fun” sounding speaker with a somewhat colored sound in comparison with the Genelecs. Is that mostly because you are acclimated to the sound of the Genelec, or do you think you would have problem getting the mixes to translate using the 8C?

I wouldn't say coloured necessarily, almost too "nice"?, perhaps luring me into a false sense of security. Yes I am acclimated with the Genelecs, along with the other monitors and how they have translated across hundreds of delivered projects. Given ideal placement and time, I would eventually be able to learn the 8c's in my room and would definitely consider them for my next studio build or an alternative room.

 

[Spocko]

The Genelec tweeter/highs are responsible for the love / hate relationship people have with the Genelec sound , just like the Focal beryllium .
After I got used to their sound , other monitors just sounded dark or rolled off to me .

Also, the reason people buy Genelec is the GLM/DSP/EQ capability that can literally tune it to your taste and needs - it's not like people have to live with piercing highs either! IMO it's this flexibility that make them so desirable

 

[Pearljam5000]

Also, the reason people buy Genelec is the GLM/DSP/EQ capability that can literally tune it to your taste and needs - it's not like people have to live with piercing highs either! IMO it's this flexibility that make them so desirable

Can you tune it to sound exactly like the 8C?

 

[AudioJester]

Also, the reason people buy Genelec is the GLM/DSP/EQ capability that can literally tune it to your taste and needs - it's not like people have to live with piercing highs either! IMO it's this flexibility that make them so desirable

I know right. Very easy to add - even just a gentle low pass in Roon- and get the top end sounding like the D&D. Thats the advantage of a almost perfect starting point, you can get it to sound however you like, multiple presets for whatever you want whenever.

Although, at this level of performance, each of us needs to listen and pick our own preference. Sometimes that will be feature set as well as sound.

 

[Spocko]

Can you tune it to sound exactly like the 8C?

As their dispersion patterns are not identical, their will always be subtle differences with regard to stereophonics and room interaction but above 250Hz I'm sure you can come darn close as long as you know what the 8C's frequency curve in your room and that's the hard part.

 

[Tangband]

I wouldn't say coloured necessarily, almost too "nice"?, perhaps luring me into a false sense of security. Yes I am acclimated with the Genelecs, along with the other monitors and how they have translated across hundreds of delivered projects. Given ideal placement and time, I would eventually be able to learn the 8c's in my room and would definitely consider them for my next studio build or an alternative room.

Well, you cant see that in any measurements , can you ?

Everything cant be measured ofcourse.

Amirms testing with the klippel system shows some of the soundquality , about 70 % , the rest he cant measure ( how the stereo image is built up in the listeners brain ) so there it is , there are also differences in the inbuilt amplifiers and the dsp crossovers have probably different orders of steepness and they all sound slightly different - something every DIY loudspeaker builder is aware of if they have used dsp crossovers to play with a couple of years.

So, loudspeakers with the same klippel score sound slightly different so one must listen to make valid judgement about sound quality.

 

[Purité Audio]

Actually you almost certainly can see that in the measurements, speakers actually do sound different .
Keith

 

[DJBonoBobo]

@Tenku
Could you please post your 3 measurements again, but in the same graph, with a 50dB y- axis range and with var smoothing? So the differences should be easier to see.