Dutch&Dutch 8C /Genelec 8351b and Amphion something or other.

[Pearljam5000]

It took a little while to acclimatise to the sound of the three but within a few minutes you could differentiate between them, the Gens were I thought the most different.
Keith

Different how ?

 

[Purité Audio]

Well the Gens were in the words of the owner a little ‘brittle’ sounding compared to the D&Ds.
Keith

 

[Count Arthur]

Well the Gens were in the words of the owner a little ‘brittle’ sounding compared to the D&Ds.
Keith

Yes, but what about PRaT; and how velvety were the mids?

 

[suttondesign]

My experience in different environments with the Dutch is that they are peerless in smoothness in the midrange in a listening position typical of a home environment.
My issue was the nasally box limitation of all monkey coffins -- bass is potent but not as natural as a dipole, and I thought the very deep bass was a bit distorted owing to 8" drivers hitting their mechanical limits. I have posted a number of times about the smoothness vs. "liveness" tradeoffs as between boxes and dipoles, which I think the Dutch does about as well as any speaker, and to me represents a supreme value for a plug-and-play active.

A much larger, passive speaker like Amir's big Revels probably avoids the distortion problems of smaller, active monitors, but that's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[Purité Audio]

‘Nasal box limitations of all monkey coffins’ yes … no not really ( you have to imagine John Wick saying the line)
8” drivers hitting their mechanical limits, I suppose all drivers will bottom out if you play loudly enough, unless the speaker has built in driver protection of course.
I have always been underwhelmed with dipoles designs.
I have a customer who had Salon 2s and we arranged a Grimm LS1 comparison in his room and he purchased the Grimms.
Keith

 

[holdingpants01]

That's not 8351B but 8351A, so less headroom, different midrange driver, different woofers, less powerful amps, only 10 EQ points instead of 20

 

[Purité Audio]

I am pretty sure Charlie said they were ‘Bs’ I will check next time I see him.
Keith

 

[holdingpants01]

I am pretty sure Charlie said they were ‘Bs’ I will check next time I see him.
Keith

I'm sure he did but the midrange driver is a giveaway, it was one smooth surface in the A model but all of current 83x1 models have multiple rings. I liked the look of A more but I have to live with B for the time being lol

 

[Purité Audio]

That’s interesting I had some ‘B‘s’ here I took in part exchange, but that was a while ago.




Keith

 

[holdingpants01]

That’s interesting I had some ‘B’ here I took in part exchange, but that was a while ago.




Keith

Yes, you can see the separate rings. Looking at them now I'm thinking I should go with white

 

[Purité Audio]

We had the then new 8260’s\7350? subs here years ago and they re-arranged my thinking regarding sound reproduction .
The 8361/W371A sounded very fine at the Genelec centre, but the 8351Bs I took in part ex were a little underwhelming and yesterday the Gen ‘sound’ was noticeably thinner that the 8Cs, if one were simply listening for pleasure there would be no contest but for ‘work’ I wouldn’t know.
Keith.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Keith
I hope that I don't insult you by calling you a hifi retailer?
If that is acceptable, can I thank you for your refreshing candour!
If I wasn't content with Unilet New Malden. Or indeed Grahams North London, you and your premises sound ideal!I
David

 

[Purité Audio]

David I aspire to be a hi-fi retailer, I suspect I am pretty much like yourself an enthusiast.
I believe that measurement is important, my experience is that the better the measurements the more uncoloured the final product.
Designs such as the 8C simply allow listeners to enjoy a full range transparent sound in their room.
Does Grahams still keep all theNaim components on 24/7 even the ones not in use?
Best,
Keith

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

David I aspire to be a hi-fi retailer, I suspect I am pretty much like yourself an enthusiast.
I believe that measurement is important, my experience is that the better the measurements the more uncoloured the final product.
Designs such as the 8C simply allow listeners to enjoy a full range transparent sound in their room.
Does Grahams still keep all theNaim components on 24/7 even the ones not in use?
Best,
Keith

Thanks for your response Keith!
Can't speak of Graham's currently. The LP12 being my most recent purchase from them. Ray Horn was, possibly still is the Sondek specialist there.
Best wishes

 

[Tenku]

I'm sure he did but the midrange driver is a giveaway, it was one smooth surface in the A model but all of current 83x1 models have multiple rings. I liked the look of A more but I have to live with B for the time being lol

View attachment 346540

Yes, they are 8351As. Wanna swap? lol

 

[Tenku]

Hello all,

The pictures Keith posted are from my studio space where the tests have been conducted. Here follows a review of the experience:

So I’ve been searching for something to improve upon or add to my current set of monitors which include: Genelec 8351A with 7360 Sub, Amphion Two18s with Amp700, Yamaha NS10M with Bryston 4B-ST - pretty (industry) standard studio fare.

To preface, back in 2018 I had already done a shootout of the Kii Audio Three vs Genelec 8351 vs ATC SCM45A Pro, and ended up opting for the Genelec system; however the Dutch & Dutch 8c have always piqued my interest and I just had to scratch that itch, which is why I got in contact with Keith @ Purite Audio.

My first experience with the D&D 8c was at a listening session held at Keith's. They were in set up in free space mode, on excellent Mesanovic decouplers and with no DSP on.

After acclimatising myself with a few reference tracks, my initial thoughts were that they were annoyingly amazing! The clarity, smoothness and soundstage of the 8c was seductive and evocative, triggering an immediate compulsion of wanting to listen to all of one's favourite records and repertoire all over again. I would have preferred that they weren't that good so I could return contently to my existing setup, however that well-known audiophile sensation of discovering and hearing new things in material that you thought you knew intimately was in full effect.

There was now only one logical step - demo them in my own environment and shoot them out against my existing setup, so I contacted Keith the very next day and had them bought over and installed.

Due to the tight space on the desk bridge, the best option to compare the soundstage was to arrange the 8351 and 8c in a makeshift line array. (Putting the 8351s inside where the Amphions were may have skewed this test.)

Yes, we were aware of the fact that the cardioid apertures might not fully work on the side that was right up against the Two18s, however we decided to crack on with initial tests knowing that the Amphions could easily be removed later to reveal further improvementsw.

Firstly, the Genelecs were calibrated in its new position via GLM; then onto the 8c’s, which took slightly more time as REW was not communicating properly with them. In the end, we had to input the EQ filters manually via the Ascend app (only a few attenuations up to the Schroeder frequency of the room).

After some SPL level matching calibration and FR measurements (attached below), it was finally time to listen to them in situ and off we went with the reference playlist.

Obviously due to the placement & room treatment, the 8c’s did appear different than when they were at Keiths, but as the playlist rolled on, that seductive & emotive quality of the 8c’s became apparent again.

Switching to the Genelecs (via the Grace Audio m905 monitor controller that Keith was mightily impressed with), the soundstage was actually on par and since the 8351 & 7360 were re-calibrated via GLM, the low end did seem fuller & tighter.

Comparing to the Amphions, which uses SEAS tweeters like the 8c, there were actually some similarities in the smooth, slightly softer high end. This caused the 8351's tweeters to sound, in my own words “brittle" in comparison, however I will caveat that the Genelecs did sound off and phasey due to their new high position, and didn't seem to be performing in their best light.

Since having them for around a week, I've conducted more tests including:

• Positioning in free space for the cardioid apertures on the side to fully engage
• AES vs Analog feed
• With/without DSP engaged
• BACCH Plugin
• Linear vs Low latency mode
• Real-time tracking
• Working on real-world projects
• Delivering resulting audio/music to clients

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My conclusions are as follows:

The 8c’s ARE remarkable (see what I did there GS fans), they are in fact astonishing and evocative to listen to music through… There is no BUT per se; I would happily purchase them for my listening room, end of. (The only slight downside would be that the DSP is a faff to set up and calibrate, especially when REW integration is not working or the firmware/app is experiencing issues).

My requirements though are for the studio environment and engineering side of music, where translation is the name of the game.

For this, I do prefer my current Genelec system along with the various other monitors in my arsenal: Amphion Two18, Yamaha NS-10M, Auratone 5c, Fostex 6301, so I can flick between these various ‘sonic lenses’.

To further this analogy; with the Genelec system, I have a clean surgical lens vs the 8c which feel like tinted designer glasses. The Amphions, which are unremarkable according to Keith, are exactly that! That’s their purpose; just as NS-10M bookshelves and 5c grot boxes are - they all have their place in the toolbox.

Incidentally, the upgrade route I am now considering is to move up to 8361s and possibly pair them with W371s which offer a fuller range cardioid dispersion, along with the excellent GLM system and seamless integration should I ever need to go surround/Atmos.

If you’ve made it this far, thank you for indulging in my audio babble and happy listening, whatever you have!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR - One is a great for making music on; the other is great for consuming said music on.

P.S. Special thanks to Keith @ Purite Audio for his time, candour & knowledge. We had a great time geeking out over a few afternoons.

 

[holdingpants01]

Hello all,

The pictures Keith posted are from my studio space where the tests have been conducted. Here follows a review of the experience:

So I’ve been searching for something to improve upon or add to my current set of monitors which include: Genelec 8351A with 7360 Sub, Amphion Two18s with Amp700, Yamaha NS10M with Bryston 4B-ST - pretty (industry) standard studio fare.

To preface, back in 2018 I had already done a shootout of the Kii Audio Three vs Genelec 8351 vs ATC SCM45A Pro, and ended up opting for the Genelec system; however the Dutch & Dutch 8c have always piqued my interest and I just had to scratch that itch, which is why I got in contact with Keith @ Purite Audio.

My first experience with the D&D 8c was at a listening session held at Keith's. They were in set up in free space mode, on excellent decouplers and with no DSP on.

After acclimatising myself with a few reference tracks, my initial thoughts were that they were annoyingly amazing! The clarity, smoothness and soundstage of the 8c was seductive and evocative, triggering an immediate compulsion of wanting to listen to all of one's favourite records and repertoire all over again. I would have preferred that they weren't that good so I could return contently to my existing setup, however that well-known audiophile sensation of discovering and hearing new things in material that you thought you knew intimately was in full effect.

There was now only one logical step - demo them in my own environment and shoot them out against my existing setup, so I contacted Keith the very next day and had them bought over and installed.

Due to the tight space on the desk bridge, the best option to compare the soundstage was to arrange the 8351 and 8c in a makeshift line array. (Putting the 8351s inside where the Amphions were may have skewed this test.)

Yes, we were aware of the fact that the cardioid apertures might not fully work on the side that was right up against the Two18s, however we decided to crack on with initial tests knowing that the Amphions could easily be removed later to reveal further improvementsw.

Firstly, the Genelecs were calibrated in its new position via GLM; then onto the 8c’s, which took slightly more time as REW was not communicating properly with them. In the end, we had to input the EQ filters manually via the Ascend app (only a few attenuations up to the Schroeder frequency of the room).

After some SPL level matching calibration and FR measurements (attached below), it was finally time to listen to them in situ and off we went with the reference playlist.

Obviously due to the placement & room treatment, the 8c’s did appear different than when they were at Keiths, but as the playlist rolled on, that seductive & emotive quality of the 8c’s became apparent again.

Switching to the Genelecs (via the Grace Audio m905 monitor controller that Keith was mightily impressed with), the soundstage was actually on par and since the 8351 & 7360 were re-calibrated via GLM, the low end did seem fuller & tighter.

Comparing to the Amphions, which uses SEAS tweeters like the 8c, there were actually some similarities in the smooth, slightly softer high end. This caused the 8351's tweeters to sound, in my own words “brittle" in comparison, however I will caveat that the Genelecs did sound off and phasey due to their new high position, and didn't seem to be performing in their best light.

Since having them for around a week, I've conducted more tests including:

• Positioning in free space for the cardioid apertures on the side to fully engage
• AES vs Analog feed
• With/without DSP engaged
• BACCH Plugin
• Linear vs Low latency mode
• Real-time tracking
• Working on real-world projects
• Delivering resulting audio/music to clients

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My conclusions are as follows:

The 8c’s ARE remarkable (see what I did there GS fans), they are in fact astonishing and evocative to listen to music through… There is no BUT per se; I would happily purchase them for my listening room, end of. (The only slight downside would be that the DSP is a faff to set up and calibrate, especially when REW integration is not working or the firmware/app is experiencing issues).

My requirements though are for the studio environment and engineering side of music, where translation is the name of the game.

For this, I do prefer my current Genelec system along with the various other monitors in my arsenal: Amphion Two18, Yamaha NS-10M, Auratone 5c, Fostex 6301, so I can flick between these various ‘sonic lenses’.

To further this analogy; with the Genelec system, I have a clean surgical lens vs the 8c which feel like tinted designer glasses. The Amphions, which are unremarkable according to Keith, are exactly that! That’s their purpose; just as NS-10M bookshelves and 5c grot boxes are - they all have their place in the toolbox.

Incidentally, the upgrade route I am now considering is to move up to 8361s and possibly pair them with W371s which offer a fuller range cardioid dispersion, along with the excellent GLM system and seamless integration should I ever need to go surround/Atmos.

If you’ve made it this far, thank you for indulging in my audio babble and happy listening, whatever you have!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR - One is a great for making music on; the other is great for consuming said music on.

P.S. Special thanks to Keith @ Purite Audio for his time, candour & knowledge. We had a great time geeking out over a few afternoons.

Cool stuff! I just think there's no point in pairing 8361B with W371A, I use 8351B with W371A and right now the 8351B are playing only above 300Hz or so, changing them to 8361 wouldn't achieve anything (same midrange, tweeter and amps for these, the only difference is the size and woofer with amp but this is almost unused in this setup) and would actually made placement too compromised. W371A height is 110cm, this is a lot and I have to use 8351 on their side and angled downward even more than the rubber feet allow, I had to unscrew them to tilt the desired amount. 8341A on the other hand are smaller and less powerful so IMO 8351B is the perfect companion for W371A.

 

[GaryY]

I admit I'm conservative and Dutch and Dutch look more like nice looking speaker. But I saw the price.

 

[Tenku]

Cool stuff! I just think there's no point in pairing 8361B with W371A, I use 8351B with W371A and right now the 8351B are playing only above 300Hz or so, changing them to 8361 wouldn't achieve anything (same midrange, tweeter and amps for these, the only difference is the size and woofer with amp but this is almost unused in this setup) and would actually made placement too compromised. W371A height is 110cm, this is a lot and I have to use 8351 on their side and angled downward even more than the rubber feet allow, I had to unscrew them to tilt the desired amount. 8341A on the other hand are smaller and less powerful so IMO 8351B is the perfect companion for W371A.

That makes total sense!

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hello all,

The pictures Keith posted are from my studio space where the tests have been conducted. Here follows a review of the experience:

So I’ve been searching for something to improve upon or add to my current set of monitors which include: Genelec 8351A with 7360 Sub, Amphion Two18s with Amp700, Yamaha NS10M with Bryston 4B-ST - pretty (industry) standard studio fare.

To preface, back in 2018 I had already done a shootout of the Kii Audio Three vs Genelec 8351 vs ATC SCM45A Pro, and ended up opting for the Genelec system; however the Dutch & Dutch 8c have always piqued my interest and I just had to scratch that itch, which is why I got in contact with Keith @ Purite Audio.

My first experience with the D&D 8c was at a listening session held at Keith's. They were in set up in free space mode, on excellent Mesanovic decouplers and with no DSP on.

After acclimatising myself with a few reference tracks, my initial thoughts were that they were annoyingly amazing! The clarity, smoothness and soundstage of the 8c was seductive and evocative, triggering an immediate compulsion of wanting to listen to all of one's favourite records and repertoire all over again. I would have preferred that they weren't that good so I could return contently to my existing setup, however that well-known audiophile sensation of discovering and hearing new things in material that you thought you knew intimately was in full effect.

There was now only one logical step - demo them in my own environment and shoot them out against my existing setup, so I contacted Keith the very next day and had them bought over and installed.

Due to the tight space on the desk bridge, the best option to compare the soundstage was to arrange the 8351 and 8c in a makeshift line array. (Putting the 8351s inside where the Amphions were may have skewed this test.)

Yes, we were aware of the fact that the cardioid apertures might not fully work on the side that was right up against the Two18s, however we decided to crack on with initial tests knowing that the Amphions could easily be removed later to reveal further improvementsw.

Firstly, the Genelecs were calibrated in its new position via GLM; then onto the 8c’s, which took slightly more time as REW was not communicating properly with them. In the end, we had to input the EQ filters manually via the Ascend app (only a few attenuations up to the Schroeder frequency of the room).

After some SPL level matching calibration and FR measurements (attached below), it was finally time to listen to them in situ and off we went with the reference playlist.

Obviously due to the placement & room treatment, the 8c’s did appear different than when they were at Keiths, but as the playlist rolled on, that seductive & emotive quality of the 8c’s became apparent again.

Switching to the Genelecs (via the Grace Audio m905 monitor controller that Keith was mightily impressed with), the soundstage was actually on par and since the 8351 & 7360 were re-calibrated via GLM, the low end did seem fuller & tighter.

Comparing to the Amphions, which uses SEAS tweeters like the 8c, there were actually some similarities in the smooth, slightly softer high end. This caused the 8351's tweeters to sound, in my own words “brittle" in comparison, however I will caveat that the Genelecs did sound off and phasey due to their new high position, and didn't seem to be performing in their best light.

Since having them for around a week, I've conducted more tests including:

• Positioning in free space for the cardioid apertures on the side to fully engage
• AES vs Analog feed
• With/without DSP engaged
• BACCH Plugin
• Linear vs Low latency mode
• Real-time tracking
• Working on real-world projects
• Delivering resulting audio/music to clients

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My conclusions are as follows:

The 8c’s ARE remarkable (see what I did there GS fans), they are in fact astonishing and evocative to listen to music through… There is no BUT per se; I would happily purchase them for my listening room, end of. (The only slight downside would be that the DSP is a faff to set up and calibrate, especially when REW integration is not working or the firmware/app is experiencing issues).

My requirements though are for the studio environment and engineering side of music, where translation is the name of the game.

For this, I do prefer my current Genelec system along with the various other monitors in my arsenal: Amphion Two18, Yamaha NS-10M, Auratone 5c, Fostex 6301, so I can flick between these various ‘sonic lenses’.

To further this analogy; with the Genelec system, I have a clean surgical lens vs the 8c which feel like tinted designer glasses. The Amphions, which are unremarkable according to Keith, are exactly that! That’s their purpose; just as NS-10M bookshelves and 5c grot boxes are - they all have their place in the toolbox.

Incidentally, the upgrade route I am now considering is to move up to 8361s and possibly pair them with W371s which offer a fuller range cardioid dispersion, along with the excellent GLM system and seamless integration should I ever need to go surround/Atmos.

If you’ve made it this far, thank you for indulging in my audio babble and happy listening, whatever you have!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR - One is a great for making music on; the other is great for consuming said music on.

P.S. Special thanks to Keith @ Purite Audio for his time, candour & knowledge. We had a great time geeking out over a few afternoons.

Special thanks for posting FR graphs in addition to describing your experience.
I only listened to the 8c and 8351b compared to the Neumann KH150 in a store for 2 hours or so. I found the 8c overall best, Genelec worst (because of the piercing treble) and Neumann good, but with a smaller soundstage than the 8c and overall a little less spectacular. But they weren't calibrated, i have no LP measurements and i am not a professional searching for tools, so my short experience is not really worth a lot to others.
I don't know if the treble thing is just subjective or being used to something (which one is correct - the "piercing" or "clear" or the "smooth" or "tinted"?).