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Does anyone have a Williamson tube amplifier?

DanielT

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Or have had, listened to a Williamson tube amplifier? Impression?

Are they available?
What can one, in reasonable condition, cost?

I could really imagine having one. Mostly for its HiFi history. :) Not as a main amp but in some nice secondary system. Then together with a subwoofer + LP/HP filter sub-speaker. Speakers that the Williamson tube amplifier would like to drive.:)
I might add that when I say have such an old amplifier as a general tip, you should be knowledgeable about electronics or, as in my case, have a friend who is knowledgeable (I help him with other things). Taking amplifiers to professional repairman, who charge by the hour, can be expensive.

Do you think the technical data in the Wikipedia link below is correct?:
15 W, 0.1% distortion, straight FR?
Good damping (factor) is mentioned. What kind of damping factor it is and what it is compared to, one might wonder.

The Williamson amplifier is a four-stage, push-pull, Class A triode-output valve audio power amplifier designed by D. T. N. Williamson during World War II. The original circuit, published in 1947 and addressed to the worldwide do it yourself community, set the standard of high fidelity sound reproduction and served as a benchmark or reference amplifier design throughout the 1950s. The original circuit was copied by hundreds of thousands amateurs worldwide.[1] It was an absolute favourite on the DIY scene of the 1950s, and in the beginning of the decade also dominated British and North American markets for factory-assembled amplifiers.

The Williamson circuit was based on the 1934 Wireless World Quality Amplifier by Walter Cocking, with an additional error amplifier stage and a global negative feedback loop. Deep feedback, triode-connected KT66 power tetrodes, conservative choice of standing currents, and the use of wide-bandwidth output transformer all contributed to the performance of the Williamson. It had a modest output power rating of 15 Watts[a] but surpassed all contemporary designs in having very low harmonic distortion and intermodulation, flat frequency response throughout the audible frequency range, and effective damping of loudspeaker resonances. The 0.1% distortion figure of the Williamson amplifier became the criterion for high fidelity performance[2][3] that remains valid in the 21st century.
[4]

Or maybe one should let such an old amplifier remain in some radio museum for display only, considering this:

The Williamson amplifier was sensitive to selection and matching of passive components and valves, and prone to unwanted oscillations at infrasonic and ultrasonic frequencies. Enclosing four valve stages and an output transformer in a negative feedback loop was a severe test of design, resulting in a very narrow phase margin or, quite often, no margin at all. Attempts to improve stability of the Williamson could not fix this fundamental flaw. For this reason, and due to high costs of required quality components, manufacturers soon abandoned the Williamson circuit in favour of inherently more stable, cheaper and efficient three-stage, ultralinear or pentode-output designs.


Here is a video for the technically interested:


Edit:
I don't even really know what it looks like. There are pictures online but I think it mostly looks like variations on that amp. Can anyone produce a picture of the original? It would be nice to see what it looks like.:)
 
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sergeauckland

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Quote:
I don't even really know what it looks like. There are pictures online but I think it mostly looks like variations on that amp. Can anyone produce a picture of the original? It would be nice to see what it looks like.:)

There wasn't an 'original' as it was published as an article in Wireless World, for people to build for themselves. There were some commercial implementations, but these would have been their interpretation of the design. Very similar situation to the Mullard 5-10 and 5-20, and the GEC 9-12+, which were published as DIY projects that several manufacturers took on as commercial products. Neither Mullard nor GEC cared about design copyright, they were interested in DIYers and manufacturers using their designs so they used their valves.

S.
 

fpitas

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If you go to the tube sub forum at DIY Audio, one of those guys might offer a kit of his interpretation.
 

Schollaudio

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I used Eico HF20s for a number of years. It was back in the 90s so I can't really comment on the sound. I don't recall any instability. My pair was in bad condition but operational so I used the chassis for many experiments.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Thank you for the answers. That was interesting. I am most curious about the history surrounding it. HiFi history interests me.:)

So the Williamson tube amplifier was thus aimed at those who wanted build for themselves.
Well, hm, in that case you probably have to be a DIY tube dude if you're going to buy one of these. That so you know what to look for before making a purchase. Having said that, it would still have been fun to listen to one.:)
 

anmpr1

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fpitas

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From Audio Engineering, June 1952.


2) Back then, if you wanted hi-fi, and didn't have a lot of cash, DIY/kits were the ticket.
DIY is alive and well, especially if tubes are your thing.


Try not to electrocute yourself ;)
 

anmpr1

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DIY is alive and well, especially if tubes are your thing.

Tube circuitry with point to point wiring is generally easier for the beginner builder. Back in the day (LOL) everyone and their brother sold a kit. Dynaco made it pretty simple, with boards already populated. But there were a lot of others. Scott was (I'm guessing) No. 2. Old timers remember the name of Stu Hegeman, who designed the now collectable Citation tube kits. Even McIntosh could be bought in a MacKit. I recall (but never encountered in person) Luxman's LuxKits. So it wasn't always bare bones cheaper stuff.

SS was more complicated for the novice. More to solder, I guess. At the low end you could get the early Dyna SS amps. FWIW, people said they didn't 'sound' as good as their tube brothers. David Hafler always argued differently, but he was marketing the product, so you had to take that into consideration. In any case, it's sort of amazing to see Dyna designs still supported in the aftermarket.

At the higher end of power, I vaguely remember the Tigersaurus kit. Jim Bongiorno (I think) played off that design (and name) to come up with his Ampzilla kit. Later, I believe Jim was involved in Dyna ST-400 kit design.

For a while, in the 80s, before everything moved overseas, Dave marketed his Hafler preamp and amps in a DIY box. I think those were the last of the mass market kits. I can't really remember anyone selling kits, after those.

Today you have Elekits from Japan. I built one of their preamps, but didn't find it a pleasurable experience. I thought the boards were too compact for fingers, and the individual components too close together for easy soldering. Obviously YMMV.

I've a homemade PAS 'sort of clone' from an outfit called Erhard Audio. Comes as a bag of parts. It kind of looks like a PAS, but the circuitry is all new, and not related to whatever Ed Laurent and David Hafler were designing back in the '60s. Also, two Mk IV clones I built, sourced from Dyankitparts Dot Com. Better than the original lightweight chrome chassis, now heavier gauge stainless steel, but circuits are direct clones of the original Dynaco design... with the exception of a 6GH8A substituting for the 6199, which is no longer made. His kits are very easy to put together, if you can get them. Supply chain issues appear to have stopped production.

Anything you build yourself is worthwhile. Certainly no one will mistake it for anything SOA, mass produced, or stamped out in an Asian factory somewhere. But a kit builder will likely enjoy their build just as much, if not more. In other cases it will be impossible for the end user to build something modern--like the Benchmark, for instance, which could never be a kit.

PS: in a related market, there are ready kits for electric guitar pedals and amps. If I was going to build another kit (which I'm not) I'd likely buy a tube guitar amp kit. But you get to the age where it's just too much to deal with.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Morgan Jones did a very comprehensive analysis of the circuit and its performance in "Valve Amplifiers."

I built and used one many years back. It performed very well.
Out of pure curiosity, probably hypothetically, if you haven't had an SMSL DA-6.

SMSL DA-6 VS Williamson tube amplifier. 13 modern class D watts into 8 Ohms vs very old 15 tube watts. What do you think of the difference in sound between them? Do you think you would hear a difference? That's assuming they drive speakers that are suitable for them.

SMSL DA-6:
SMSL DA-6 Stereo Amplifier Power 8 Measurements.png

 

notsodeadlizard

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Being a true fan of tube sound is a pleasure and a passion.
And you can relate to pleasure and passion either in any way if it is not your pleasure and passion, or surrender to it.
Abstract reasoning does not work here.
I have not made Williamson amps, but I have made other tube amps and I can assure you that when you make your own tube amp you will enjoy the sound even if it is 1% THD. Because it's your effort and creativity but not a $100 rattle ordering from Amazon...
I hope you understand.
Pleasure is not measured, passion is not a subject to platitudes, the most expensive work in the world is your own for yourself.
Peace.
:)
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Being a true fan of tube sound is a pleasure and a passion.
And you can relate to pleasure and passion either in any way if it is not your pleasure and passion, or surrender to it.
Abstract reasoning does not work here.
I have not made Williamson amps, but I have made other tube amps and I can assure you that when you make your own tube amp you will enjoy the sound even if it is 1% THD. Because it's your effort and creativity but not a $100 rattle ordering from Amazon...
I hope you understand.
Pleasure is not measured, passion is not a subject to platitudes, the most expensive work in the world is your own for yourself.
Peace.
:)
If we take the DIY aspect of it all then I understand exactly and agree. I dabble a bit with DIY speakers, but DIY tube amps I'm wary of due to lack of knowledge in electronics.

Speaking of self-building and the joy and satisfaction it brings, see here::)

 

notsodeadlizard

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I suspect there is something hidden in common in the DIY audio community.
This is an analog electronics.
Analog electronics is extremely exciting.
It's complicated, that's a fact.
Digital technologies have developed so dramatically and quickly because they are extremely simple compared to analog electronics.

Not everyone can be as genius as Bob Widlar or Bob Pease or https://www.planetanalog.com/adles-top-10-analog-engineers/ .
But elegance and complexity appeal to many people, that's how we are made.
Audio technology simply provides a very accessible application area for analog electronics, an application area where the result can be heard (and seen) and this does not require special instruments and/or extreme operating conditions.

This is something like a very complex multi-dimensional chess with a material gain, the opponents are complexity and your own laziness :)
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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I suspect there is something hidden in common in the DIY audio community.
This is an analog electronics.
Analog electronics is extremely exciting.
It's complicated, that's a fact.
Digital technologies have developed so dramatically and quickly because they are extremely simple compared to analog electronics.

Not everyone can be as genius as Bob Widlar or Bob Pease or https://www.planetanalog.com/adles-top-10-analog-engineers/ .
But elegance and complexity appeal to many people, that's how we are made.
Audio technology simply provides a very accessible application area for analog electronics, an application area where the result can be heard (and seen) and this does not require special instruments and/or extreme operating conditions.

This is something like a very complex multi-dimensional chess with a material gain, the opponents are complexity and your own laziness :)
Then there is a difference between DIY and DIY.:)

Example. Take this pre amp:

The Hypex can be considered a type of DIY. Or more like IKEA assembling modules together.

Unlike this:
A tube pre amp built from scratch. Then with considerations regarding the selection of all necessary components,card construction,tests and measurements and so on. That tube preamplifier apparently turned out really well. :)
He who designed that tube amp, Morello/Gustav, is a talented EE who design and build (and sells) his own designed amplifier. Solid state class AB amplifier,
on a commercial basis then (finished non-DIY amplifier). But he thought it would be fun with a challenge to build a good tube amplifier. Hence the project.:)

Here is the construction, with schematics:



It was a non-commercial build some good amplifier project so anyone who wanted to could join in and build their own.There were quite a few who joined that project and built their own based on Morello's design. I am attaching pictures of some of the constructions, plus some measurements. From this thread:


Edit:
Here is Morello's commercial amplifier. I am also attaching a picture of them:

 

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SIY

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Out of pure curiosity, probably hypothetically, if you haven't had an SMSL DA-6.

SMSL DA-6 VS Williamson tube amplifier. 13 modern class D watts into 8 Ohms vs very old 15 tube watts. What do you think of the difference in sound between them? Do you think you would hear a difference? That's assuming they drive speakers that are suitable for them.
You're right, I haven't had that amp. The main difference is going to be source impedance if you keep them away from clipping. The resulting frequency response differences can likely be EQed out.

The Achilles' Heel of small tube amps is usually overload recovery since they will, with most speakers, clip as soon as you try to reproduce loud and complex material. Tube amps are terrible at that unless designed specifically to optimize it. And you can count the number of amps designed that way on one hand.
 

SIY

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Then there is a difference between DIY and DIY.:)

Example. Take this pre amp:

The Hypex can be considered a type of DIY. Or more like IKEA assembling modules together.

Unlike this:
A tube pre amp built from scratch. Then with considerations regarding the selection of all necessary components,card construction,tests and measurements and so on. That tube preamplifier apparently turned out really well. :)
He who designed that tube amp, Morello/Gustav, is a talented EE who design and build (and sells) his own designed amplifier. Solid state class AB amplifier,
on a commercial basis then (finished non-DIY amplifier). But he thought it would be fun with a challenge to build a good tube amplifier. Hence the project.:)

Here is the construction, with schematics:



It was a non-commercial build some good amplifier project so anyone who wanted to could join in and build their own.There were quite a few who joined that project and built their own based on Morello's design. I am attaching pictures of some of the constructions, plus some measurements. From this thread:


Edit:
Here is Morello's commercial amplifier. I am also attaching a picture of them:

Are you familiar with the term "Muntzing"? This preamp badly needs it.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Are you familiar with the term "Muntzing"? This preamp badly needs it.
Do you mean Morello's tube pre amp? Possible, but I don't think he's the kind of person who adds stuff like that just for the sake of it. I don't know if it could have something to do with the that it is perhaps prepared with a phono input, maybe add remote, with the possibility of more inputs, maybe that a DAC should be added and so on. Note now I'm just guessing, I don't know if that's the case.:)

Edit:
I can guess that simpler DIY pre amp should probably be a OP amp based such. Some resistors, capacitors plus the OP amp (box/ chassis, inputs and outputs, volume pot and so on). Not many parts then. Plus cheaper.
Maybe not such a big challenge then, but still.:)
 
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SIY

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Do you mean Morello's tube pre amp?
Yes. A lot of unnecessary complication, and a lot of components that aren't really doing anything. I see you took out the schematic in an edit. :D
 
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