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Do untreated rooms look like this?

producer12999

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Hi, I am currently planning my studio, my room is 18 m2 and the setup is on the shorter wall. The room is reasonably symmetrical except for the windows, but there are none at the first reflection points or backwall.

I made the first measurements in different positions and distances of the speaker and listening position, and the measurements all look almost the same. Is it normal for untreated rooms to look like this? There is currently nothing in the room except a bed. I don’t like to sit on the longer wall, but I didn’t take measurements on the longer wall. If I would sit on the longer wall I would have to place my bed to the left of me, in general the room would be more asymmetrical.

What do you think? I’m building my home studio soon with a big bugdet. Can I continue the work with this frequency response? Will these massive standing waves be minimized by the new steps? What do you think.

Thank you very much!
 

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staticV3

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What do you think? I’m building my home studio soon with a big bugdet. Can I continue the work with this frequency response?
Sure.

Will these massive standing waves be minimized by the new steps?
That depends on what your next steps are. There are definitely ways to minimize the effect that room modes have on your listening experience.
Most effective is probably 3+ subs configured with Multi-Sub Optimizer, or ideally a double bass array.

Cardioid speakers like the D&D 8C, Mesanovic CDM65, Kii Three, or Genelec W371A can also help give you a smoother bass response.
 
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producer12999

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Sure.


That depends on what your next steps are. There are definitely ways to minimize the effect that room modes have on your listening experience.
Most effective is probably 3+ subs configured with Multi-Sub Optimizer, or ideally a double bass array.

Cardioid speakers like the D&D 8C, Mesanovic CDM65, Kii Three, or Genelec W371A can also help give you a smoother bass response.
Thank you mate! My next steps looks like this.

I would like to install acoustic modules, the modules on the rear wall are the thickest with 25cm. The other ones are 17cm thick and a bit of diffusion is used in combination with absorbers. At the listening place in front of me, diffusion plates come into the modules so that it is not unpleasant.

Your solutions are too much for me at the moment, because I am happy to have good acoustics soon and I run out of budget, but I will definitely write that down. Do you think the bass range will improve strongly in frequency response through the measures?

They say overall on YT you have to find the perfect listening position in the first step, but I mean the frequency response looks terrible or am I wrong?
 

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ozzy9832001

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Thank you mate! My next steps looks like this.

I would like to install acoustic modules, the modules on the rear wall are the thickest with 25cm. The other ones are 17cm thick and a bit of diffusion is used in combination with absorbers. At the listening place in front of me, diffusion plates come into the modules so that it is not unpleasant.

Your solutions are too much for me at the moment, because I am happy to have good acoustics soon and I run out of budget, but I will definitely write that down. Do you think the bass range will improve strongly in frequency response through the measures?

They say overall on YT you have to find the perfect listening position in the first step, but I mean the frequency response looks terrible or am I wrong?
Frequency response isn't terrible. It's typical for any room at first. You have a null at 80hz and another at 120hz. Both are more than likely based off the dimensions of your room.

How far are your speakers from the wall and how far are you from the speakers? Adding 1 subwoofer may improve the bass significantly. I would highly recommend experimenting with your listening position, including setting up against the long wall. Decent speakers can easily overcome side wall asymmetries and there are plenty of people (myself included) who have it as well.
 
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producer12999

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Frequency response isn't terrible. It's typical for any room at first. You have a null at 80hz and another at 120hz. Both are more than likely based off the dimensions of your room.

How far are your speakers from the wall and how far are you from the speakers? Adding 1 subwoofer may improve the bass significantly. I would highly recommend experimenting with your listening position, including setting up against the long wall. Decent speakers can easily overcome side wall asymmetries and there are plenty of people (myself included) who have it as well.
Hi, the speakers are 35cm away from the wall and 90cm away from the sides. Behind the right speaker is a heater that protrudes 15 cm forward. So there must be minimum a 35 cm distance so that in addition a 20 cm absorber fits there.

The speakers are 130 cm apart, the listening position to the speakers also. As I said, I have already tested various things on this wall, I ALWAYS had the nulls at 80 Hz + 120 Hz. Whether I pushed the speakers forward or closer to the wall (>10 cm), changing the stereo triangle didn’t help either. I hate the long wall because the bed would stand next to me, completely asymmetrical and I would have to discard my entire room planning. In addition, the left wall would then be much thinner than the right. The back wall is thinner, which was also a reason to plan my studio on the short wall.

Can the problem with the nulls not be solved by my acoustic measures, which can be seen in the pictures?
 

olieb

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Can the problem with the nulls not be solved by my acoustic measures, which can be seen in the pictures?
The different kind of absorbers will work mostly from 100 Hz up. So they can only help a little bit. The bass is dominated by the room dimensions. If your back wall is "thinner", does that mean it is a dry wall? That would help as it is a big area of damping and transmission.
As you are using REW did you experiment with the "Room Sim" option? It is actually quite helpful for rectangular rooms and you might get a result pretty close to your measurement if you put in the exact dimensions and positions. (with the buttons below the camera icon you can create a "measurement" from the simulations in the main window.
 
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producer12999

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The different kind of absorbers will work mostly from 100 Hz up. So they can only help a little bit. The bass is dominated by the room dimensions. If your back wall is "thinner", does that mean it is a dry wall? That would help as it is a big area of damping and transmission.
As you are using REW did you experiment with the "Room Sim" option? It is actually quite helpful for rectangular rooms and you might get a result pretty close to your measurement if you put in the exact dimensions and positions. (with the buttons below the camera icon you can create a "measurement" from the simulations in the main window.
Hey thanks for the tip I'm playing right now with the room sim! I don't know which kind of wall it is. I only know by knocking against it that it's thinner. Has this wall an impact on the bass nulls because it's thinner or what do you mean by "That would help as it is a big area of damping and transmission"?
 

ozzy9832001

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An 80hz sine wave is roughly 4.3m long. Quarter distance would be roughly 1.1m. If we add the additional space that would put in right in the null for it. 120hz issue can probably get better with treatment, but 80hz is a large sine wave and will either require a lot of porous absorption or something specifically targeted to the 80hz region.

A subwoofer could fix the issue or at least make it respond better to treatment.

You would get best results for the 80hz sine wave with thick treatment on the front wall, behind the speakers. A 4" (10cm) panels won't even come close to denting it. You'd need larger baffle traps. Big thick traps running from floor to ceiling in the front 2 corners and the ceiling to wall joint on the front wall. You can add further treatment to the FW as necessary.

Depending on how the dispersion on your speakers is, you may not even need to treat the sidewalls. The rear wall maybe more problematic or the ceiling.

I always recommend starting with big thick traps because your goal is to get the low end in check. You can add limiters to the traps to prevent them from over absorbing the mids/highs.
 

olieb

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Hey thanks for the tip I'm playing right now with the room sim! I don't know which kind of wall it is. I only know by knocking against it that it's thinner. Has this wall an impact on the bass nulls because it's thinner or what do you mean by "That would help as it is a big area of damping and transmission"?
The question is how reflective the wall is for low frequency sound. Brick or concrete walls (even the thinner ones) are very reflective. Dry walls with plaster or wooden panels do vibrate much more and thereby absorb (and transmit) the sound. They act as some kind of membrane absorber. That can be a problem too, if everything goes into resonance at a specific frequency ;-(

You can see the effect of absorbtion/transmission in Room Sim by changing the parameters for your room simulation.
 
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producer12999

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An 80hz sine wave is roughly 4.3m long. Quarter distance would be roughly 1.1m. If we add the additional space that would put in right in the null for it. 120hz issue can probably get better with treatment, but 80hz is a large sine wave and will either require a lot of porous absorption or something specifically targeted to the 80hz region.

A subwoofer could fix the issue or at least make it respond better to treatment.

You would get best results for the 80hz sine wave with thick treatment on the front wall, behind the speakers. A 4" (10cm) panels won't even come close to denting it. You'd need larger baffle traps. Big thick traps running from floor to ceiling in the front 2 corners and the ceiling to wall joint on the front wall. You can add further treatment to the FW as necessary.

Depending on how the dispersion on your speakers is, you may not even need to treat the sidewalls. The rear wall maybe more problematic or the ceiling.

I always recommend starting with big thick traps because your goal is to get the low end in check. You can add limiters to the traps to prevent them from over absorbing the mids/highs.
The problem is that the front wall also has a window. I could use 25 cm thick absorbers from GIK Acoustics. But not from the floor to the ceiling. But I could do that with the back wall. Do you think that would help? Otherwise, I might really have to test it with a subwoofer.
 

olieb

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The problem is that the front wall also has a window. I could use 25 cm thick absorbers from GIK Acoustics. But not from the floor to the ceiling. But I could do that with the back wall. Do you think that would help? Otherwise, I might really have to test it with a subwoofer.
Normally it is a better idea to make the back wall absorptive and the front wall reflective (diffuse). But to absorb a wave with porous material you need about a thickness of >15% of wavelength. This kind of treatment is used sometimes but it takes up al lot of space.
 
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producer12999

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Normally it is a better idea to make the back wall absorptive and the front wall reflective (diffuse). But to absorb a wave with porous material you need about a thickness of >15% of wavelength. This kind of treatment is used sometimes but it takes up al lot of space.
Sounds like I'm screwed.
 
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producer12999

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olieb

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Sounds like I'm screwed.
Of course, we are all screwed. Room modes are nasty.
You might have found that it is a bit better in the middle of the room, but aside from that everybody has these problems. A pro studio can easily have room treatment in a six figure range.
 

NTK

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Perhaps OP can take a look at examples of studios designed by WSDG to get some inspirations.
 

olieb

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One of these is 0.36 m2, so 1.4m2 for 4. They look nice and membrane absorber is the way to go, but you might calculate the size of your back wall (or front) and then compare. It will increase (average) wall absorption by about 0.2 if your wall is 3 x 2.5 m.
So be prepared that you might want to use more of these. But your pictures show that you are already planning that way ;-)
 

MRC01

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I have Scopus T70s in my room, among other treatments. They are effective narrow band absorbers at 70 Hz. But due to the size of the wavelength at 70 Hz, you need several of them to make any difference. 4 will most likely give you a small measurable difference, but you'll probably need more than 4 to take a 6 dB or bigger bite out of a 70 Hz wave. Start with 4 and go from there.
 

MRC01

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PS: if you want more absorption overall, 18" to 24" diameter tube traps will handle the entire bass range. My homemade ones were quite effective. I used those first, before targeting specific frequencies with narrow band absorbers.
 
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producer12999

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I have Scopus T70s in my room, among other treatments. They are effective narrow band absorbers at 70 Hz. But due to the size of the wavelength at 70 Hz, you need several of them to make any difference. 4 will most likely give you a small measurable difference, but you'll probably need more than 4 to take a 6 dB or bigger bite out of a 70 Hz wave. Start with 4 and go from there.
Thanks for the tip. That would be the best option for me. GIK could tune these to 80 Hz. Ideally, do you place them on the back wall? Or do you look for the place where the pressure is highest?

I have another question, we are only talking about my 80 Hz dip all the time. In my measurement you can see a big 70 Hz peak.

How can I actually proceed against this?
 

MRC01

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Thanks for the tip. That would be the best option for me. GIK could tune these to 80 Hz. Ideally, do you place them on the back wall? Or do you look for the place where the pressure is highest?
My 70 Hz null was due to LBIR, the distance from listener to back wall. I confirmed this theoretically with calculations, then pragmatically by sliding the listener position further and closer to the back wall and measuring, seeing the 70 Hz null change frequency. So I put them on the back wall. Compute your distances, see where the peak or null is coming from, and put them on that surface.

I have another question, we are only talking about my 80 Hz dip all the time. In my measurement you can see a big 70 Hz peak.
How can I actually proceed against this?
First, I used big tube traps which are broadband absorbers across the entire bass spectrum. That made a big improvement, measurable and audible. Then I used narrow band absorbers like the T70 wherever needed, in trouble spots that remained.
 
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