Dirac Live Stereo 2.0 (Mixing application) Please Help

[AmielMix]

Hi,
I am new here and hope I can get some help and tips with Dirac Live.

I am testing Dirac for my Mixing Room in a stereo 2.0 system where I want to achieve the best flat response for maximum translation .

So I have few questions that I want some help with:
- How many microphone placements are at Ear level?? (only the one at the center?)

then seems that are 2 positions in front and 2 behind of the listening position at the center in Left and Right.

My question is; are 4 different Heights per Left and Right? or 2 different Heights per side? is hard to understand this tri-dimensional perspective?

and also it is imperative for this use (Mixing) to have at least 12 inches in distant between each position?

Microphone pointing at the Ceiling right?

Then, once I created the filter Dirac creates these 2 Handles or points with a boost of 2.5 db in the Low End and 1.5db in the top end.
Now if you see the correction made By Dirac is a flat line but in these to points goes above the flat line...

so what are those 2 boosts that exceeds the 0 db Flat line? ??


From the manual "The auto target curve, introduced in Dirac Live.3, will preserve your speaker's character while subtracting any negative effects like excessive reflections or distortion.
The handles to the left and right side of the Filter Design window will let you adjust bass and treble response, respectively. Simply drag the handles up or down to tune the curve to your liking."

Thanks in advance for your help

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi,
I am new here and hope I can get some help and tips with Dirac Live.

I am testing Dirac for my Mixing Room in a stereo 2.0 system where I want to achieve the best flat response for maximum translation .

So I have few questions that I want some help with:
- How many microphone placements are at Ear level?? (only the one at the center?)

Yes, the first is the most important one that should be exact. The others should make a rectangular cuboid. Size and exact shape of this cuboid can be tailored to your needs. For example, you can decide to make it more deep or more wide to fit your listening situation.

then seems that are 2 positions in front and 2 behind of the listening position at the center in Left and Right.

My question is; are 4 different Heights per Left and Right? or 2 different Heights per side? is hard to understand this tri-dimensional perspective?

and also it is imperative for this use (Mixing) to have at least 12 inches in distant between each position?

Not really, you can try less. The smaller the cuboid, the more exact possibly but also the more fragile. If it is too small it may sound artificial. You have to try for yourself and listen.

Microphone pointing at the Ceiling right?
View attachment 306821


Then, once I created the filter Dirac creates these 2 Handles or points with a boost of 2.5 db in the Low End and 1.5db in the top end.
Now if you see the correction made By Dirac is a flat line but in these to points goes above the flat line...

so what are those 2 boosts that exceeds the 0 db Flat line? ??

Dirac boosts, what i never liked. But the actual measurement looks different than that curve by Dirac. Maybe the boost is less high than it looks. In my experience, Dirac is unreliable in this regard. If you dont want boosts, you may need to add handles at any point of the curve and manipulate the target curve there.

From the manual "The auto target curve, introduced in Dirac Live.3, will preserve your speaker's character while subtracting any negative effects like excessive reflections or distortion.
The handles to the left and right side of the Filter Design window will let you adjust bass and treble response, respectively. Simply drag the handles up or down to tune the curve to your liking."

You can use the curtain handles to limit Dirac to some range, for example bass. You can try using Dirac only up to 500 Hz, leaving the rest as it is.

Thanks in advance for your help

View attachment 306824

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Yes, the first is the most important one that should be exact. The others should make a rectangular cuboid. Size and exact shape of this cuboid can be tailored to your needs. For example, you can decide to make it more deep or more wide to fit your listening situation.


Not really, you can try less. The smaller the cuboid, the more exact possibly but also the more fragile. If it is too small it may sound artificial. You have to try for yourself and listen.


Dirac boosts, what i never liked. But the actual measurement looks different than that curve by Dirac. Maybe the boost is less high than it looks. In my experience, Dirac is unreliable in this regard. If you dont want boosts, you may need to add handles at any point of the curve and manipulate the target curve there.


You can use the curtain handles to limit Dirac to some range, for example bass. You can try using Dirac only up to 500 Hz, leaving the rest as it is.

You can just pull the target curve below the response curve to control exactly how much you want it to boost. I can also recommend you try to pull the whole curve below the response so it only cuts. I have had succesful results doing just that.

 

[AmielMix]

Thank you guys.

So the only measurement at Ear level is the one at the center (Listening Position)???

 

[AmielMix]

Dirac boosts, what i never liked. But the actual measurement looks different than that curve by Dirac. Maybe the boost is less high than it looks. In my experience, Dirac is unreliable in this regard. If you dont want boosts, you may need to add handles at any point of the curve and manipulate the target curve there.

---------

The correction and filter sound good but 2 boosts in the Low End and Top end are confusing... as I imagine Dirac wants to give you the Flattest Frequency response, and that looks maybe like a Personal Curve to enjoy music on a personal level....

 

[ozzy9832001]

You can also ungroup the left and right speaker so you can make changes individually. For instance, the boost at 55hz may make the right speaker sound over inflated to compensate for the left. Generally, I wouldn't boost too much in Dirac. It has a tendency to introduce clipping.

 

[AmielMix]

Thank you guys, this is a great Forum, more advise and tips are welcome!

 

[Anthony LoFi]

The previous posters have given good advice. I have Dirac and find it took me many many hours of experimentation to get a satisfactory result.
I have two systems, one for re-processing audio, the other to listen in stereo.
With your narrow listening position, (near field monitoring) Dirac has fewer measuring points but you also have the ability to create extra measuring points. The Dirac manual states more (additional) measuring points create a more accuracy. I added 4 more additional measuring points around the first centered measuring point to get a better outcome.

If your room does not have lopsided absorption of reflective properties (between L & R) then Dirac can work quite well. If you have a non-symetrical room, the results can be confusing. The sound stage can be severely affected and can also affect tonality.

I found that to ensure you get the best result from Dirac, remembering that Dirac is a not a magic wand and does its best but is not perfect, you must get the physical setup correct.
Follow your speaker manufacturers placement requirements. The toe in and distance between the "golden triangle"and your listening position.
The first Dirac measurement is the most critical (centered listening position). It determines the time delays to each L & R speaker if you are not perfectly equidistant to each speaker.
Hence why speaker placement and toe in (if required) is essential.
I used a few test audio tracks that give a known 3D soundstage to set up my speakers at ear height. Once I was convinced the distance between the speaker was just wide enough and a perfectly centered lisening position, I then use Dirac.
It took me weeks to get the setup right before I was happy to use the Dirac treatment.

With regard to the Dirac "Harmon curve", the others here are right, don't use it. You are after a flat response, not for your pleasure or taste but to audition as accurately as possible the source material. I understand you are downmixing multiple mono tracks into a stereo image?

Also it can help to lower your listening levels to the least amount to achieve a stable stereo image. This will help with Dirac countering the room reflections as the lower volume will have less affect on what your hearing.
Also when doing your Dirac calibration, do two the same but have one with the lowest volume you can and the next the highest volume you would use in practice. You can then do an A/B on your remote to hear the difference.

Al the best.

 

[MachOne]

You are after a flat response, not for your pleasure or taste but to audition as accurately as possible the source material.

To avoid confusion, it's probably worth noting that by flat you presumably don't mean horizontal when measured at the listening position. Generally for it to sound tonally correct there will be a gentle downward slope of a flattish line.

 

[AmielMix]

With regard to the Dirac "Harmon curve", the others here are right, don't use it. You are after a flat response, not for your pleasure or taste but to audition as accurately as possible the source material. I understand you are downmixing multiple mono tracks into a stereo image?

Yes, I mix records so use multiple mono tracks and stereos track to downmix it into a final Stereo Track.

So the extra Boost added in the Lowend and Top end is the Dirac suggestion to have a Harman Curve according to my Speakers in my room??

Also it can help to lower your listening levels to the least amount to achieve a stable stereo image. This will help with Dirac countering the room reflections as the lower volume will have less affect on what your hearing.
Also when doing your Dirac calibration, do two the same but have one with the lowest volume you can and the next the highest volume you would use in practice. You can then do an A/B on your remote to hear the difference.

Al the best.

Do you mean to make another Capture and Filter with a lower volume for the sweeps to don't excite the room so much and then to Compare and see how it works?? or to use that Filter when I mix at lower Volume?


Yes my speaker without Dirac are sounding great in my room, I just worked hard lately in having a greate placement and the Toe in is just great now, the sound is clear and the speakers are working effortless, I just want diract to give a final touch, my room has acoustic treatment, and sounds pretty good at the listening position, that is the spot I really care and need to be great.

Thanks

 

[AmielMix]

Thank you guys, this is my first post here and I am so happy and surprised people are so knowledgeable and so willing to help.... is this forum also about audio for Recording Studio and music related gear?, anyway my fascination in audio are speakers , where I really owned many great brands and models...

 

[MachOne]

@AmielMix If you check out this video you can see the mix room response of well known mix engineer Eric Valentine. It is very similar to what sounds "right" on my Kali monitors. (His channel is great, btw, well worth checking out his other videos)

 

[MachOne]

@AmielMix And you can see mastering engineer Bob Katz's room measurement here https://www.stereophile.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-17-perfecting-perfection

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Yes, I mix records so use multiple mono tracks and stereos track to downmix it into a final Stereo Track.

So the extra Boost added in the Lowend and Top end is the Dirac suggestion to have a Harman Curve according to my Speakers in my room??


Do you mean to make another Capture and Filter with a lower volume for the sweeps to don't excite the room so much and then to Compare and see how it works?? or to use that Filter when I mix at lower Volume?


Yes my speaker without Dirac are sounding great in my room, I just worked hard lately in having a greate placement and the Toe in is just great now, the sound is clear and the speakers are working effortless, I just want diract to give a final touch, my room has acoustic treatment, and sounds pretty good at the listening position, that is the spot I really care and need to be great.

Thanks

"So the extra Boost added in the Lowend and Top end is the Dirac suggestion to have a Harman Curve according to my Speakers in my room??"

No, I believe your reference mix should be without any additional frequency adjustment. The client can then audition on your system and then decide if they wish to emphasis the music by EQ. I usually have another system that is frequency limited (bookshelf speakers and integrated amp) and use my car audio (standard factory unit) to check the reference mix if it works on Joe Average playback. Remember most people love to add bass and decrease treble on their playback systems. Hence why we have the idea of the "Harmon curve".

"Do you mean to make another Capture and Filter with a lower volume for the sweeps to don't excite the room so much and then to Compare and see how it works?? or to use that Filter when I mix at lower Volume?"

Yes, a completely new set of measurements with a level lower to minimize the room correct response and then one with a slightly louder volume than your usual mixing level. You have 4 slots to save different sets of parameters. You can save low level and high level in 1 & 2, then add a Haron curve to both in 3 & 4. At anytime you can use the remote to switch between different Dirac processing.
In reality, for workflow, I reduce levels, then when I re-audit a finished part, increase volume to hear any changes when playing "loud". It also depends on what type of music (Doof,doof- acoustic ). The reason to do this is to realise how Dirac will process the reference source to accommodate your room.
If my first attempt with Dirac causes the sound stage to change or the tonal character changes, then I know Dirac is not correct and need to determine why. Dirac is only as good as the information you give it. That's why Ive found additional measuring positions which Dirac encourages you to use can really add to the accuracy of the system.

my room has acoustic treatment, and sounds pretty good at the listening position, that is the spot I really care and need to be great.
Ok so Dirac may disappoint you. If you have an excellent setup already you may want to refine your system to reproduce a flat response even more than you believe it is now by using REW and adding very subtle specific boosts and reductions according to the results and confirming this with your reference tracks. The good thing about Dirac is that you can turn it off with a button at any time in the process to check on fidelity.
REW can do phasing and room EQ but requires a lot of learning where Dirac is very well automated and simple to use.

PS I also convert my finished files to the lowest MP3 and listen to hear how it affects the quality and sound stage.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

I just had a look at your website. You look like you have a large number of outboard processing as well as plug-ins to your DAW.
Just trying to keep the noise floor down would be a constant task. Especially with older discreet "boxes" in and out of your busses etc.
I dont see a gear list on your site but really doesn't matter, its your results that count.

Also best of luck getting a Grammy some day. Just getting nominated is a tick on your resume.
Well done cobber.

 

[AmielMix]

@AmielMix If you check out this video you can see the mix room response of well known mix engineer Eric Valentine. It is very similar to what sounds "right" on my Kali monitors. (His channel is great, btw, well worth checking out his other videos)

Thank you!!
Interestingly I was watching a couple of his shows 2 days ago.

 

[AmielMix]

"So the extra Boost added in the Lowend and Top end is the Dirac suggestion to have a Harman Curve according to my Speakers in my room??"

No, I believe your reference mix should be without any additional frequency adjustment. The client can then audition on your system and then decide if they wish to emphasis the music by EQ. I usually have another system that is frequency limited (bookshelf speakers and integrated amp) and use my car audio (standard factory unit) to check the reference mix if it works on Joe Average playback. Remember most people love to add bass and decrease treble on their playback systems. Hence why we have the idea of the "Harmon curve".

"Do you mean to make another Capture and Filter with a lower volume for the sweeps to don't excite the room so much and then to Compare and see how it works?? or to use that Filter when I mix at lower Volume?"

Yes, a completely new set of measurements with a level lower to minimize the room correct response and then one with a slightly louder volume than your usual mixing level. You have 4 slots to save different sets of parameters. You can save low level and high level in 1 & 2, then add a Haron curve to both in 3 & 4. At anytime you can use the remote to switch between different Dirac processing.
In reality, for workflow, I reduce levels, then when I re-audit a finished part, increase volume to hear any changes when playing "loud". It also depends on what type of music (Doof,doof- acoustic ). The reason to do this is to realise how Dirac will process the reference source to accommodate your room.
If my first attempt with Dirac causes the sound stage to change or the tonal character changes, then I know Dirac is not correct and need to determine why. Dirac is only as good as the information you give it. That's why Ive found additional measuring positions which Dirac encourages you to use can really add to the accuracy of the system.

my room has acoustic treatment, and sounds pretty good at the listening position, that is the spot I really care and need to be great.
Ok so Dirac may disappoint you. If you have an excellent setup already you may want to refine your system to reproduce a flat response even more than you believe it is now by using REW and adding very subtle specific boosts and reductions according to the results and confirming this with your reference tracks. The good thing about Dirac is that you can turn it off with a button at any time in the process to check on fidelity.
REW can do phasing and room EQ but requires a lot of learning where Dirac is very well automated and simple to use.

PS I also convert my finished files to the lowest MP3 and listen to hear how it affects the quality and sound stage.

Thank you so much Anthony for you awesome info and suggestions.

I have another question Guys.

It make sense or not to keep the Chair while taking measurements? as anyway is there when I am mixing...what is the opinion about this?

I am loving this Forum.

Any of you checked Trinnov?

 

[Anthony LoFi]

It make sense or not to keep the Chair while taking measurements? as anyway is there when I am mixing...what is the opinion about this?
There is always conjecture over this, but I would remove the chair for all measurements. Dirac specifically has a user set time delay to allow each measurement to be taken with you out of the audio path.
Why not do two measurements, one without and one with and compare the difference. Their might be very little anyway.

Any of you checked Trinnov?
Expensive gear for HT, Im not in that space, find it hard enough to get 2 channel stereo right let alone multichannel.

 

[AmielMix]

Thank you guys, what a great Forum, people are very active and give good opinions with a positive vibe.

 

[ozzy9832001]

Thank you so much Anthony for you awesome info and suggestions.

I have another question Guys.

It make sense or not to keep the Chair while taking measurements? as anyway is there when I am mixing...what is the opinion about this?

I am loving this Forum.

Any of you checked Trinnov?

The chair may introduce some comb filtering. I'd try with and without to see what deviation there is, if any.