Dirac Help

[techsamurai]

Hi,

I need some help with Dirac specifically with the Onkyo TX-RZ50. I took my first measurements using the provided microphone with 3 positions and the Onkyo Controller app.

I will eventually do a UMIK-1 measurement with a mic stand and fullpositions but I wanted to get a sense for the whole thing.

First, DIRAC seems to have set my LFE Crossover to 120hz and all my channels to 70hz. Can I change the LFE Crossover to 80hz for the sub and 50hz for the fronts (B&W towers) and will that automatically apply to Dirac?

Second, I've lost a few music modes including Stereo (L+R+Sub) which is now replaced by a crazy Stereo (S) mode which uses my rear surrounds (wth). I also lost the Theater Dimensional model (T+D) but I'm less concerned about that one.

Without Stereo, I cannot listen to 2 channel + Sub with Dirac enabled as the other modes seem to disable Dirac.

https://support.onkyousa.com/hc/en-us/articles/9649551709332-TX-RZ50-Listening-Modes-and-Descriptions

 

[techsamurai]

So I did the 17 measurements with the UMIK-1 and the 90 degree calibration file and exported the filter.

I checked my speaker configuration after exporting and all my crossovers were set to 150hz as were all the speakers. My speakers distances are all set to 0 and my levels are set to 0.

What happened? This cannot be right. The cheap microphone puck with the 3 positions set the Crossover to 70hz for all the speakers and the distances were in ms (not feet) but 5.5 or so (as opposed to 0).

Also I saw some weird curtains with 99hz on the left and right and 90hz on the center in the Dirac App.

I did notice one thing - after I took measurements, I would get a red exclamation mark for 15 out of 17 measurements even though it said successfully measured position. Until my full set, I did test 50 or so test measurements. 2 positions got a check mark which is how I noticed the difference because the Dirac App seemed to be give the same green confirmation for both types of measurements.

This Dirac thing is so complicated - it may have been easier to build my own AVR using HDMI 4.0 with 9 toroidal amps for each speaker and used it to go to Mars

 

[techsamurai]

Here's the measurement from my front left speaker.

The bass drops like a sledgehammer - these are B&W 700 series rated to 38hz (+-6db). I have that with all my speakers regardless of size.

Here's my sub - there's a cliff under 90hz....

 

[Ciobi69]

Is there any crossover that cut the frequency??

 

[techsamurai]

Is there any crossover that cut the frequency??

I had them set to 50hz for fronts and 70hz for Center and Surrounds.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Here's the measurement from my front left speaker.

The bass drops like a sledgehammer - these are B&W 700 series rated to 38hz (+-6db). I have that with all my speakers regardless of size.


View attachment 315499


Here's my sub - there's a cliff under 90hz....

View attachment 315501

That's a B&W for sure. Easy to recognize from the typical dip between 2 and 4 kHz

 

[Digital_Thor]

I had them set to 50hz for fronts and 70hz for Center and Surrounds.

do you know what t

I had them set to 50hz for fronts and 70hz for Center and Surrounds.

Interestingly enough.... searching through the manual... no mention of filter slopes... just LP and HP.... but no specifics. It could be that when your mains are filtered with HP at 70Hz - then the slope is so steep, that the output falls very quickly as you also measure.
Try lowering the cross-over point, so that subwoofers and mains overlap a bit... to see what the software does with that combination. Basically it should merely blend them in, as a combined source and just EQ the combined output - giving you a smooth response, where the base seamlessly slides into the subwoofer domain.

And definitely look into using 2 subwoofers - since the Onkyo can do that, and your total response could be much more smooth over a larger listening area.

If everything is still a mess. Definitely also try to reset it to factory settings and redo it all. Sometimes these "computer" surround products tends to adopt windows-like gremlings-features. And resetting everything both give you better "training" in your product - since you will be able to recognize patterns. And sometimes it will solve/reset settings, that can tend to "hide".

 

[BJL]

So I did the 17 measurements with the UMIK-1 and the 90 degree calibration file and exported the filter.

I checked my speaker configuration after exporting and all my crossovers were set to 150hz as were all the speakers. My speakers distances are all set to 0 and my levels are set to 0.

What happened? This cannot be right. The cheap microphone puck with the 3 positions set the Crossover to 70hz for all the speakers and the distances were in ms (not feet) but 5.5 or so (as opposed to 0).

Also I saw some weird curtains with 99hz on the left and right and 90hz on the center in the Dirac App.

I did notice one thing - after I took measurements, I would get a red exclamation mark for 15 out of 17 measurements even though it said successfully measured position. Until my full set, I did test 50 or so test measurements. 2 positions got a check mark which is how I noticed the difference because the Dirac App seemed to be give the same green confirmation for both types of measurements.

This Dirac thing is so complicated - it may have been easier to build my own AVR using HDMI 4.0 with 9 toroidal amps for each speaker and used it to go to Mars

I did not entirely understand all of your detail. I have a Pioneer, which I gather is similar to the Onkyo, and have had no problem whatsoever with Dirac. In case this helps, here is what I do. I use a UMIK-2 mic, which I'm sure offers little or no advantage over a UMIK-1.

1. In the Pioneer, I set all speakers to large (no bass management).

2. I set the levels in Dirac using the softest speaker as the reference point. I usually drop the sub level significantsly (with the sub's volume control). I aim for -35 dB or so on the Dirac level meters each channel, except the sub, which requires a little trial and error to get it right.

3. I do not use a mic stand, I just hand hold the mic in the various positions, using the 90 degree orientation.

4. When done, I go back to the Pioneer speaker configuration and set the crossover for those speakers I'm designating as "small" (bass managed).

I have noticed that Dirac will occasionally indicate a successful measurement even when the levels were too low, and the measurement wasn't actually successful. It's important to get the levels high enough. I do wear hearing protection when doing this procedure.

I have never had any problem similar to what you describe.

Hope this helps.

 

[shilent]

I have a similar problem with my Onkyo NR7100.

I replaced my center channel, so I reran Dirac. I had some of those exclamation marks. My distances and levels are now set to 0. Distance is also grayed out and I cannot adjust them.

This wasn't an issue a few months ago. The difference between then and now is a firmware update and Dirac Live version is now 3.7.2 which was previously 3.4.4.

I can load up my old Dirac Live project and uploading them to the AVR now sets my distances correctly.

Anyone know what's going on?

 

[Philbo King]

Here's the measurement from my front left speaker.

The bass drops like a sledgehammer - these are B&W 700 series rated to 38hz (+-6db). I have that with all my speakers regardless of size.


View attachment 315499


Here's my sub - there's a cliff under 90hz....

View attachment 315501

Seems odd.. a sub covering 100-300 Hz? Does not compute.

 

[Philbo King]

Hi,

I need some help with Dirac specifically with the Onkyo TX-RZ50. I took my first measurements using the provided microphone with 3 positions and the Onkyo Controller app.

I will eventually do a UMIK-1 measurement with a mic stand and fullpositions but I wanted to get a sense for the whole thing.

First, DIRAC seems to have set my LFE Crossover to 120hz and all my channels to 70hz. Can I change the LFE Crossover to 80hz for the sub and 50hz for the fronts (B&W towers) and will that automatically apply to Dirac?

Second, I've lost a few music modes including Stereo (L+R+Sub) which is now replaced by a crazy Stereo (S) mode which uses my rear surrounds (wth). I also lost the Theater Dimensional model (T+D) but I'm less concerned about that one.

Without Stereo, I cannot listen to 2 channel + Sub with Dirac enabled as the other modes seem to disable Dirac.

https://support.onkyousa.com/hc/en-us/articles/9649551709332-TX-RZ50-Listening-Modes-and-Descriptions

Re: the missing modes & surround sound present.
Your AVR is likely upsampling the stereo input. Our Yamaha receiver does the same thing when I set it to 7 channel stereo (even though our speaker setup is 4.1).

 

[tobby]

Seems odd.. a sub covering 100-300 Hz? Does not compute.

Yes... Seems very odd. Starting at around 95 Hz - so this subwoofer nearly starts it's frequency response where it normally should end.

 

[TheBlackCreature]

So I did the 17 measurements with the UMIK-1 and the 90 degree calibration file and exported the filter.

I checked my speaker configuration after exporting and all my crossovers were set to 150hz as were all the speakers. My speakers distances are all set to 0 and my levels are set to 0.

What happened? This cannot be right. The cheap microphone puck with the 3 positions set the Crossover to 70hz for all the speakers and the distances were in ms (not feet) but 5.5 or so (as opposed to 0).

Also I saw some weird curtains with 99hz on the left and right and 90hz on the center in the Dirac App.

I did notice one thing - after I took measurements, I would get a red exclamation mark for 15 out of 17 measurements even though it said successfully measured position. Until my full set, I did test 50 or so test measurements. 2 positions got a check mark which is how I noticed the difference because the Dirac App seemed to be give the same green confirmation for both types of measurements.

This Dirac thing is so complicated - it may have been easier to build my own AVR using HDMI 4.0 with 9 toroidal amps for each speaker and used it to go to Mars

Did you figure this out? Got the same 0 distance reads and red exclamation marks while running for the first time. Denon x3800. Sound is dull and super low.

 

[BullBuchanan]

Can I change the LFE Crossover to 80hz for the sub and 50hz for the fronts (B&W towers) and will that automatically apply to Dirac?

As I understand it, you don't want to change LFE crossover from 120hz. If you lower it, you'll lose the LFE information above the corssover completely, it won't just go to your mains. You shouldn't need to go above 120hz as I understand there isn't supposed to be LFE above that anyway.

 

[BJL]

As I understand it, you don't want to change LFE crossover from 120hz. If you lower it, you'll lose the LFE information above the corssover completely, it won't just go to your mains. You shouldn't need to go above 120hz as I understand there isn't supposed to be LFE above that anyway.

I believe that the LFE specification for cinema (and I presume TV series) is up to 120 Hz, but there is no specification that applies to multichannel music, and in any case there should not be a crossover for the LFE signal as this is handled by the source material (as opposed to a crossover for any channels that are bass managed). Perhaps someone has further information on this.

 

[BullBuchanan]

I believe that the LFE specification for cinema (and I presume TV series) is up to 120 Hz, but there is no specification that applies to multichannel music, and in any case there should not be a crossover for the LFE signal as this is handled by the source material (as opposed to a crossover for any channels that are bass managed). Perhaps someone has further information on this.

There probably shouldn't be, but there often is in modern AVRs. See the writeup here: https://subwoofer101.com/setting-up-your-gear/large-vs-small-lfe-main-double-bass-etc/

"The LPF for LFE is the low pass filter setting for the LFE channel. Normally this is set to 120 Hz, since that is typically the upper limit used by DVD mixing engineers.”