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Denon PMA 1600 or Yamaha A S701, and hello

900SL

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I am delighted to have found this objective forum in a Hi Fi world populated by snake oil salesmen and on-line marketing masquerading as independent subjective review. Thank you for existing.

Some background. I've been out of the market for a few years but I recently relocated and sold off most of my gear including a NAD C370, Quad 12L and Tannoy Revolution speakers. On returning to the game, I have been overwhelmed by the plethora of junk and outsourced branding that seems to make up much of the market these days

I'm now looking for a good quality well built stereo amp to power stand mount speakers in a moderate size room approx 5m x 4m. I listen at moderate levels typically, with the occasional blast. Jazz, acoustic, hip hop, dope beat, Spanish, Rock, Electronic, I've a broad taste and a good ear

My budget is around 3K UK with a 50-50 split between amp and speakers. I have analogue and digital sources. I don't need on board streaming etc

By location, warranty and import taxes and duty, I'm somewhat restricted in choice so the more esoteric makes are out of the question. I do not want to buy Chinese made equipment for a number of reasons including having done a few trips up the Pearl River.

Reliability, quality of components, build, warranty, all rank alongside sound reproduction. I like neutral with a hint of warmth, good tonality, separation (Dear Gods I'm sounding like a 'What do we know about Hifi' word salad review).

So, I've kind of narrowed it down to the Denon or Yamaha. The Denon ticks a lot of boxes, and is made in Japan and appears to be a good build, but my knowledge of electrical engineering could be written on the side of a small capacitor. I may be able to audition the Denon.

Thanks for reading, and What say you?
 

twsecrest

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The avforums is located in Europe (UK?), people on the forum might point you the best deals on what your looking for.
For audio, I would spend more of my budget for speakers, than the amp that drives them.
 

delta76

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Both would be good amplifier. And you will have a hard time auditioning an amp because unless it is highly distorted (tube amps), it is very difficult to distinct two amps with similar performance.

Do you need the integrated part of S701? If not, how does a hypex amp sound to you? It has plenty of power, measured great
 

Doodski

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@900SL roughly where are you located (The country) so we know what gear you can purchase and for what prices.

Ahhhaaa! I see it now. 3K UK for the country. OOOPs. sorrrry.
 
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maty

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Multitest integrated amplifiers – 2500 Euro – Which is the best (for you)?

Multitest – The best amplifier for 1000 Euro – 2022 edition

To me, with my old amplifier (I have a new from only one week ago), the best sound: Arcarm SA30. Arcam SA20 is a very good choice too, and more if you live at UK.

You can download the samples and measurements after free login:

Portapapeles01.png
 
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TimW

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Of the two amps in the thread title, I would choose the Yamaha based on looks and price. The Yamaha also has more power into 8 ohm loads but probably similar into 4.

Personally I would prefer something like the NAD C 399 with the BluOS-D module. It gives you modern Hypex amplification with plenty of power and arguably the best automated room correction system with a great streamer in a western company branded box. Manufactured in China though, and that doesn't leave enough of the budget for speakers.

Inevitably someone will chime in with the recommendation that you go with active studio monitors instead.
 

sarumbear

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I am delighted to have found this objective forum in a Hi Fi world populated by snake oil salesmen and on-line marketing masquerading as independent subjective review. Thank you for existing.

Some background. I've been out of the market for a few years but I recently relocated and sold off most of my gear including a NAD C370, Quad 12L and Tannoy Revolution speakers. On returning to the game, I have been overwhelmed by the plethora of junk and outsourced branding that seems to make up much of the market these days

I'm now looking for a good quality well built stereo amp to power stand mount speakers in a moderate size room approx 5m x 4m. I listen at moderate levels typically, with the occasional blast. Jazz, acoustic, hip hop, dope beat, Spanish, Rock, Electronic, I've a broad taste and a good ear

My budget is around 3K UK with a 50-50 split between amp and speakers. I have analogue and digital sources. I don't need on board streaming etc

By location, warranty and import taxes and duty, I'm somewhat restricted in choice so the more esoteric makes are out of the question. I do not want to buy Chinese made equipment for a number of reasons including having done a few trips up the Pearl River.

Reliability, quality of components, build, warranty, all rank alongside sound reproduction. I like neutral with a hint of warmth, good tonality, separation (Dear Gods I'm sounding like a 'What do we know about Hifi' word salad review).

So, I've kind of narrowed it down to the Denon or Yamaha. The Denon ticks a lot of boxes, and is made in Japan and appears to be a good build, but my knowledge of electrical engineering could be written on the side of a small capacitor. I may be able to audition the Denon.

Thanks for reading, and What say you?
Choose your speakers first. I suggest spend more on them than on amplifiers.
 

Chrise36

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I would suggest a NORD NC252MP integrated with ELAC DBR62 or KEF R3.
 

restorer-john

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I would buy the Yamaha AS-S701 over the Denon.

Denon have been screwing around with the same basic design for about two decades, jazzing it up a bit and repackaging. Yamaha, sure, have done much the same, but the A-S701 is a more capable amplifier with a considerably more robust power stage, better power supply and overall, greater reliability.

Denon always run their PSU caps on the ragged edge and I have lost count of the number I have seen with bulged/failed main filter caps. You are in a 220V country with likely 240V+ most of the time. Denon make the amplifier look pretty to the untrained, but when you look past the 'twin transformers' (pointless- just build a more capable single txf) and what appears to be 'audiophile' style layout, you'll see it's nothing special.

In terms of actual performance, the Yamaha maintains perfect channel balance over its entire range due to electronic control of the volume. Yes, it's a motorized analogue pot, but it's actually is read by an A/D converter and translated to direct control of the volume. No channel imbalance at all. The Denon uses a typical Alps dual gang and the balance will not be perfect over the entire range.

The Yamaha is made in Malaysia (IIRC) and Yamaha built that factory in about 1992. They own it. We don't know who builds the Denon in Japan for them, but as far as I am aware, it's one of many OEMs.
 

Doodski

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I would buy the Yamaha AS-S701 over the Denon.

Denon have been screwing around with the same basic design for about two decades, jazzing it up a bit and repackaging. Yamaha, sure, have done much the same, but the A-S701 is a more capable amplifier with a considerably more robust power stage, better power supply and overall, greater reliability.

Denon always run their PSU caps on the ragged edge and I have lost count of the number I have seen with bulged/failed main filter caps. You are in a 220V country with likely 240V+ most of the time.

In terms of actual performance, the Yamaha maintains perfect channel balance over its entire range due to electronic control of the volume. Yes, it's a motorized analogue pot, but it's actually is read by an A/D converter and translated to direct control of the volume. No channel imbalance at all. The Denon uses a typical Alps dual gang and the balance will not be perfect over the entire range.

The Yamaha is made in Malaysia (IIRC) and Yamaha built that factory in about 1992. They own it. We don't know who builds the Denon in Japan for them, but as far as I am aware, it's one of many OEMs.
I agree and the Denon is so expensive comparatively.
 

restorer-john

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I agree and the Denon is so expensive comparatively.

I didn't even look at the price, I based my recommendation on build and performance and what we know about their designs/topology. Now I look at the prices after you mentioned it, and boy, that Denon is just a stupid price here.

Denon $2999
Yamaha $1175 (normally $1495)

I'd buy the Yamaha, and put the savings towards much better speakers as @sarumbear would say.
 

Midwest Blade

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Yamaha fan so that would be a vote for the As-701. Capable for both analog and digital sources, decent power, should provide many years of service based on noted build quality.

What speakers are you planning to use?
 
OP
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900SL

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@900SL roughly where are you located (The country) so we know what gear you can purchase and for what prices.

Ahhhaaa! I see it now. 3K UK for the country. OOOPs. sorrrry.
It's complicated from UK currently in Finland, work in Middle East
 
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900SL

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Many thanks for the comprehensive responses, looks like a win for the Yamaha with some interesting alternatives to consider

I've been out of the hifi loop for a few years working overseas, the whole Hypex / class D / streaming side is a new field for me. I've previously either used CD or FLAC from PC to RCA on my amps. Looks like I have some reading up to do to catch up.

My choice of speakers was narrowed down to Quad Z2 (I know, MIC but I did like my old 12L speakers), ATC SMC 11, Tannoy Evo 4.2 if not too woolly, a pair of used but immaculate Spendor S7s that I can buy at a good price, and possibly ProAc if I totally blow the budget.

I work in Saudi so local availability is restricted, I'd have to either take as additional baggage or get it shipped in which can be a headache. Not insurmountable though.
 

ZolaIII

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See how you like Yamaha R-N803D and if you can find it for a good price (new) which is getting harder as it's disconnected. I did read you don't need streaming but even just for iOS - Android controller MusicCast line is worth it.
Don't know if they have it in stock and warranty is filmsy (one instead two years there), but not a big thing given quality in consideration.
Keep in mind Yamahas are really not meant for lo impedance loads so you're choice of speakers with it will be a bit limited (to those that don't fall under 4 Ohm's).
Would actually suggest something like Elac DBR62 & NS-SW300 sub and you will probably have enough money left to buy something more (stands, rack, mic, cables...).
Just my 5p regarding subject. Best regards and have fun.
 
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maty

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[ Jazz, acoustic... Spanish ] ¿Eres español?

If you go for Yamaha, I advise you to at least be the Yamaha A-S2200 if you listen to very good recordings.

[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/3368-yamaha-a-s2200

To English:
Yamaha-A-S2200.png



Yamaha
[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/f/1246-yamaha
 

maty

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Alpha-Audio-Yamaha-A-S2200.png
 

Bernard23

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See how you like Yamaha R-N803D and if you can find it for a good price (new) which is getting harder as it's disconnected. I did read you don't need streaming but even just for iOS - Android controller MusicCast line is worth it.
Don't know if they have it in stock and warranty is filmsy (one instead two years there), but not a big thing given quality in consideration.
Keep in mind Yamahas are really not meant for lo impedance loads so you're choice of speakers with it will be a bit limited (to those that don't fall under 4 Ohm's).
Would actually suggest something like Elac DBR62 & NS-SW300 sub and you will probably have enough money left to buy something more (stands, rack, mic, cables...).
Just my 5p regarding subject. Best regards and have fun.
I compared a yamaha 501 with the Denon 600ne. On paper that's 80W vs 45W. Speakers Elac DSR62. At 85dB and above the Yamaha started to struggle, The Denon just got louder. I have no way of verifying the manufacturers data, so I bought the Denon. It must be good as it only has one transformer.
 

ZolaIII

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I compared a yamaha 501 with the Denon 600ne. On paper that's 80W vs 45W. Speakers Elac DSR62. At 85dB and above the Yamaha started to struggle, The Denon just got louder. I have no way of verifying the manufacturers data, so I bought the Denon. It must be good as it only has one transformer.
It's pretty average LPS speaker which can intake a lot as it can play really loud without compressing and distorting much. If you are claiming 100 W Yamaha could give 1W (2.83 V; which corresponds to 85~86 dB LPS that DBR62's will give) only clean and clear something isn't right in that statement entirely. With input set to - 6 dB (500 mV), Yamaha has spare power left to run those over 100 dB (100~101 dB LPS @ 32 W with 4.5 dB more to 100 W from 500 mV input). For the 45 W Denon even 100~101 dB is problematic on the long run (swallow, soft clipping...) but then again you won't listen so loud. Normalization, Dolby's, very high DR materials faithful representation and cetera are different story in short it's always nice to have headroom.
 
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