Denon/Marantz - the end is near

[GXAlan]

Heard about this on a podcast, and they didn't mention the TCL part. Found that after a quick Google search a moment ago (edited before I saw your reply!).

No worries. But if Pioneer can die, so can Denon.

Sony and Yamaha are more diversified and are less likely to die completely as long as the divisions are profitable. Some people would argue that Pioneer never died. They still do a lot of OEM factory car audio and aftermarket car audio and produce things like lidar sensors, but almost none of the Pioneer non-car audio products you can buy in the store as a consumer are actually Pioneer products. (DJ and home).

Heck, Denon and Marantz DJ/Professional line are not part of Denon/Marantz home audio…

There are companies that survive off boutique sales like Luxman, Linn, Naim, etc. I can see D&M doing that, but who knows?

 

[Petrushka]

No worries. But if Pioneer can die, so can Denon.

Sony and Yamaha are more diversified and are less likely to die completely as long as the divisions are profitable. Some people would argue that Pioneer never died. They still do a lot of OEM factory car audio and aftermarket car audio and produce things like lidar sensors, but almost none of the Pioneer non-car audio products you can buy in the store as a consumer are actually Pioneer products. (DJ and home).

Heck, Denon and Marantz DJ/Professional line are not part of Denon/Marantz home audio…

There are companies that survive off boutique sales like Luxman, Linn, Naim, etc. I can see D&M doing that, but who knows?

AR, KLH, Advent, Dynaco, Fisher, Realistic, Phase Linear, Harmon Kardon, Scott, Sansui, Teak, Phillips, Roberts, Akai, Boston.

If they exist at all, it’s just as badges.

 

[ban25]

A simple curiosity - Do gaming consoles that do 120hz+ and 4K also put out 4:4:4 (is the engine's final output rendered at 4:4:4, or less?)? @Aerith Gainsborough's PC scenario could.

It's 4:2:2 on the PS5 (both Pro and base model) and 4:4:4 on the Xbox Series X. I think you may be able to get 4:4:4 on the PS5 in 60 Hz mode, but that would require a degree of settings swapping both in the console and (at least for me) on the TV.

 

[abdo123]

It's 4:2:2 on the PS5 (both Pro and base model) and 4:4:4 on the Xbox Series X. I think you may be able to get 4:4:4 on the PS5 in 60 Hz mode, but that would require a degree of settings swapping both in the console and (at least for me) on the TV.

i thought the PS5 didn't use Dolby Vision or 12bit output. why does it not support 4:4:4 ?

 

[ban25]

i thought the PS5 didn't use Dolby Vision or 12bit output. why does it not support 4:4:4 ?

It does at 60 Hz, not at 120 Hz.

 

[abdo123]

It does at 60 Hz, not at 120 Hz.

Yeah but i thought 12bit is monopolised by Dolby Vision which the PS5 does not support (for games).

 

[Randyman...]

Is Dolby Vision 12-Bit 120Hz actually rendered/authored in 4:4:4? I'm genuinely curious what "content" is available that is actually encoded to require a 48Gbps bitrate directly from the source file or render engine? I work in a huge broadcast hub with the highest-end production equipment, and even our uncompressed 4K 59.94 SDI/2110 is "only" 12Gbps (4x 3G SDI's bonded in 4 quads, or a 12Gbps 2110 stream over 100G fiber).

 

[chelgrian]

Yeah but i thought 12bit is monopolised by Dolby Vision which the PS5 does not support (for games).

Not exactly, HDMI can do anything between 8 and 16 bit colour and there are commercial displays from EIZO which will do 12 bit input and can be driven by a computer.

What Dolby Vision does is produce an effective 12 bit signal from the output of a 10 bit codec plus metadata describing contrast hue saturation changes etc.

 

[chelgrian]

Is Dolby Vision 12-Bit 120Hz actually rendered/authored in 4:4:4? I'm genuinely curious what "content" is available that is actually encoded to require a 48Gbps bitrate directly from the source file or render engine? I work in a huge broadcast hub with the highest-end production equipment, and even our uncompressed 4K 59.94 SDI/2110 is "only" 12Gbps (4x 3G SDI's bonded in 4 quads, or a 12Gbps 2110 stream over 100G fiber).

These formats are only for games consoles.

Even digital cinema your source material is up to 16 bit 4:2:2 with a linear gamma curve if you are in the Sony ecosystem or 12 bit 4:2:2 with a logarithmic gamma curve if you are in the ARRI ecosystem. At DCI 4k resolutions, frame rate depends on application between 24 and 60 FPS.

Delivery for cinema is 12 bit 4:2:2 @ 24fps and home is 10 bit 4:2:0 @ 24fps with possible dynamic metadata to get you to something approximating 12 bit 4:2:0.

 

[Randyman...]

Ah OK. I was never a gamer - so not surprised we don't encounter this stuff in the professional broadcast world. We have a 550TB VAST Optane storage array that is guaranteed at 40GB/s reads and 25GB/s writes 24/7, but that is to allow multiple uncompressed 4K streams from the array. 48Gbps for a single video stream seem a little overboard

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Ah OK. I was never a gamer - so not surprised we don't encounter this stuff in the professional broadcast world.

4:4:4 chroma is essential for computer text usage. It's fairly irrelevant in games or movies.

Chroma Subsampling: 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0

What is Chroma Subsampling and where is this visible? Chroma subsampling is a type of compression that reduces the color information in a signal in favor of luminance data.

www.rtings.com

 

[ban25]

4:4:4 chroma is essential for computer text usage. It's fairly irrelevant in games or movies.

Chroma Subsampling: 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0

What is Chroma Subsampling and where is this visible? Chroma subsampling is a type of compression that reduces the color information in a signal in favor of luminance data.

www.rtings.com

On the subject of audio, I will say that the Silent Hill 2 Remake in Dolby Atmos on PS5 is one of the best surround sound experiences I've ever had...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

On the subject of audio, I will say that the Silent Hill 2 Remake in Dolby Atmos on PS5 is one of the best surround sound experiences I've ever had...

IIRC Silent Hill is a Horror, game, no?
Nothing for me then, as I get terrible nightmares from that stuff. For some reason my brain loves to go rogue with such data. ._.

Unless it's Zombies. Zombies are funny.

 

[ban25]

IIRC Silent Hill is a Horror, game, no?
Nothing for me then, as I get terrible nightmares from that stuff. For some reason my brain loves to go rogue with such data. ._.

Unless it's Zombies. Zombies are funny.

Psychological horror, but yeah, if you don't like Resident Evil, then avoid.

 

[kyuu]

On the subject of audio, I will say that the Silent Hill 2 Remake in Dolby Atmos on PS5 is one of the best surround sound experiences I've ever had...

Games in general are often the best argument for surround sound, and games with horror elements in particular tend to make good use of the surround channels. Playing games like Resident Evil, Dead Space, Alien: Isolation, even something like Prey is greatly enhanced by the presence of the surrounds. Nevermind some of the best modern music often coming from game soundtracks.

 

[Vacceo]

On the subject of audio, I will say that the Silent Hill 2 Remake in Dolby Atmos on PS5 is one of the best surround sound experiences I've ever had...

Doom Eternal is a festival of mayhem on Atmos settings. Stalker 2 also has a very nice ambiance.

 

[ban25]

Doom Eternal is a festival of mayhem on Atmos settings. Stalker 2 also has a very nice ambiance.

Nice! I've been meaning to check out Stalker.

 

[Bleib]

Nice! I've been meaning to check out Stalker.

The game basically has new patches daily, I'd wait a few months before starting

 

[Frank207be]

@PHD any rumour about ART? That would (hopefully) be much less depressing than this topic

 

[PHD]

@PHD any rumour about ART? That would (hopefully) be much less depressing than this topic

Not since they decided to delay the release till about mid-2025.