Denon AVR-X2200W Audio/Video Receiver Review

[doodlebro]

I didn't make a specific note of it. But I did start at max volume and it had huge amount of gain and clipped badly. I then pulled it way down. I want to say 80 on the volume control but not 100% sure. My bad for not noting it on the measurements.

Good enough for me, confirms the distortion I heard past -20dB was not all in my head

 

[QMuse]

When you say you "would never buy such product," can I assume that you will never buy an AVR regardless of price? The problem with this entire segment (AVRs) is that every product out there is compromised compared to stereo specific products, even from the same manufacturer. And the reason why is quite simple: 99.9% of people buying AVRs use it for home theater not critical music listening.

I'm using my Rotel processor for music listening, I rarely watch movies with it. It is hooked to Rotel THX Ultra certified multichannel amp which is built around 1.5kVA transformer and 8*10,000µF slit-foil capacitors. It has 5 amps with 4*130W power transistors per amp, each transistor capable of delivering 15Amps.

So no, not all AV devices are made equal and some of them actually provide a very decent sound with (multichannel) music.

P.S. And yes, my processor routes Zone2 via the same AKM DACs used for multichannel/primary zone and it supports direct analog passthrough path for stereo music listening

 

[peng]

I was thinking more about the difference (if any) between the zone 2 DACs of the X2200W and the later models like the X3500H, wondering if the older implementation might actually be better in this case, considering the relatively poor measurements of the X3500H's preamp output on here.

They all have the PCM5100 dac for zone 2, even the flagship AVR-X8500H and AV8805.
The X3500H preamp output was not poor until it hits about 1.5 V, unless you consider 0.001739/0.001714% THD+N poor. Amir may consider that poor if he compares it to standalone desktop DACs but for AVR/AVP/C that's not that bad at the lower voltage for use with external amps up to 200 WPC and 29 dB gain or higher.

 

[capt.s]

Implementation is an important factor but in this case, the difference in specs between the PCM5100 (zone 2) and the AK4458 (main zone) is huge. You are talking -90 dB vs -107 dB!! That's a difference of 17 dB in terms of THD+N, on top of the 5 dB difference in SNR.

https://www.akm.com/content/dam/doc.../audio-dac/ak4458vn/ak4458vn-en-datasheet.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5100.pdf

The X2400H has the same DACs and preamp/vol IC as the X4400H and SR7012. I am not sure about the 3500/4500/6013/7013, but I bet they are the same too. If there are major changes on those critical items in the audio signal path they would have advertised the claimed positives like they did during the launch of the 2016?/2017 models.

I will be fantastic if Amir could measure a X4400H or X4500H, along with a SR7012, or SR7013 and compare them in pure direct mode with the FL/FR power amps disconnected via the amp assign settings. That may help put to rest the forever speculation on the differences between the two products that have virtually identical audio signal paths except the HDAM that is found in the SR models only.

On the subject of testing an X4400H at some point, here are some snippets of hardware differences between it and the X3500 from zkelectronics.com https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x3500h/usa/denon-avr-x4400h/usa/
Marketing hype or maybe (hopefully) not? Jitter Reduction??? Nebulous claim but the measurements would quickly prove that or not! Maybe some of you guys know more about DDSC and AL32 and whether there's something to it beyond the marketing?

 

[Martin_320]

I'm using my Rotel processor for music listening, I rarely watch movies with it. It is hooked to Rotel THX Ultra certified multichannel amp which is built around 1.5kVA transformer and 8*10,000µF slit-foil capacitors. It has 5 amps with 4*130W power transistors per amp, each transistor capable of delivering 15Amps.

Are you you referring to the RMB-1075 5-ch amp?
That's what I use -- mainly for my Flac-based music.

 

[QMuse]

Are you you referring to the RMB-1075 5-ch amp?
That's what I use -- mainly for my Flac-based music.

I am.

 

[Martin_320]

I am.

Great amp. I've had it for many years, and never had a problem with it.

 

[QMuse]

Great amp. I've had it for many years, and never had a problem with it.

Same here. When you open it it seems as it has been designed and built for professional use, not home.

 

[peng]

On the subject of testing an X4400H at some point, here are some snippets of hardware differences between it and the X3500 from zkelectronics.com https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x3500h/usa/denon-avr-x4400h/usa/
Marketing hype or maybe (hopefully) not? Jitter Reduction??? Nebulous claim but the measurements would quickly prove that or not! Maybe some of you guys know more about DDSC and AL32 and whether there's something to it beyond the marketing?

Amir does measure jitter so if Denon's claim may be verifiable (i.e. true of false) on his bench. DDSC and AL32 should have no effects in direct/pure direct mode using analog inputs though, fortunately Amir typically measures using both analog and digital inputs.

Just an aside, I don't think Amir used direct mode when measuring the X3500H using analog inputs and based on the results he thought even in stereo mode it bypassed the ADC, but from what I could see in the schematic block diagrams, ADC/DSP/DAC are the normal audio path except in direct/pure direct mode.

That comparison table looks okay to me, but I had found quite a few errors before in their comparisons as a whole. Even Denon website's comparison table often had a couple of errors here and there. The most accurate presentation of features and specifications are in the downloadable product information sheet and obviously, the owner's manual. Tables, especially those from 3rd party non Denon sites such as the one you linked are good for a quick reference but not for complete accuracy.

 

[Rockfella]

When you say you "would never buy such product," can I assume that you will never buy an AVR regardless of price? The problem with this entire segment (AVRs) is that every product out there is compromised compared to stereo specific products, even from the same manufacturer. And the reason why is quite simple: 99.9% of people buying AVRs use it for home theater not critical music listening. In a home theater environment where visual stimuli is overwhelming, your critical listening skills diminish to zero, and you're just enjoying the "movie watching experience" without ever noticing that the SINAD is less than a $9 Apple dongle. Sure it would be great if measurements were better, but for real world consumers, such improvements would neither be noticed or appreciated. As a matter of fact, if you told its target audience that DTS-X will be eliminated so that more money could be put into engineering higher sound quality, consumers would choose another product that had DTS-X.

Not really zero and DTS-X is useless anyway. DTS/Dolby DTS HD-MA DOlby True HD makes a ton of difference. AVRs are/should be used for movies ONLY IMHO.

 

[capt.s]

Amir does measure jitter so if Denon's claim may be verifiable (i.e. true of false) on his bench. DDSC and AL32 should have no effects in direct/pure direct mode using analog inputs though, fortunately Amir typically measures using both analog and digital inputs.

Just an aside, I don't think Amir used direct mode when measuring the X3500H using analog inputs and based on the results he thought even in stereo mode it bypassed the ADC, but from what I could see in the schematic block diagrams, ADC/DSP/DAC are the normal audio path except in direct/pure direct mode.

That comparison table looks okay to me, but I had found quite a few errors before in their comparisons as a whole. Even Denon website's comparison table often had a couple of errors here and there. The most accurate presentation of features and specifications are in the downloadable product information sheet and obviously, the owner's manual. Tables, especially those from 3rd party non Denon sites such as the one you linked are good for a quick reference but not for complete accuracy.

I know he does measure the analog section as well but as far as I’m aware he measures the DAC performance using the SPDIF input. In that case DDSC and AL 32 would come into play if there was any merit to them.

 

[peng]

I know he does measure the analog section as well but as far as I’m aware he measures the DAC performance using the SPDIF input. In that case DDSC and AL 32 would come into play if there was any merit to them.

Yes, most of the time he measured preout performance with HDMI inputs as well. That's why I said the effects of ddsc/al24/al32 effects should be verifiable on his bench, compared to the lower models that don't have such features. It would be harder to compare with Marantz equivalent as you would end up getting the combination effects, i.e. ddsc/al32 on the digital domain and the hdam that affects both sides.

 

[capt.s]

Not really zero and DTS-X is useless anyway. DTS/Dolby DTS HD-MA DOlby True HD makes a ton of difference. AVRs are/should be used for movies ONLY IMHO.

In an ideal world - yes, bit for many it's not an option and it's also a switching inconvenience. My main gripe is that it's been proven quite inexpensive desk top DACs can perform very well and the AVRs often have decent components that're spoiled by poor implementation. It's should be possible to have a $1000+ish AVR performing well as a DAC/PRE feeding a decent two channel amp. Maybe it exists? - just not tested yet.

 

[peng]

In an ideal world - yes, bit for many it's not an option and it's also a switching inconvenience. My main gripe is that it's been proven quite inexpensive desk top DACs can perform very well and the AVRs often have decent components that're spoiled by poor implementation. It's should be possible to have a $1000+ish AVR performing well as a DAC/PRE feeding a decent two channel amp. Maybe it exists? - just not tested yet.

If you have a mid range Denon or Marantz AVR, using a desktop DAC that measured well on ASR via the analog inputs may yield audibly better sound quality. Obviously the most important thing is the source material because of the GIGO principle.

 

[capt.s]

Agreed. I did try that with a Topping D10 (even though the additional A-D D-A conversion just seems wrong) but found a higher noise floor and USB noise bleed through with the volume turned up vs the Denon DACs. That what has me curious about the X4400H performance. To your last point, I honestly think most of my dissatisfaction when listening to my system is in the source material. Many recordings (mostly recent pop) sounds clipped on the bass. Apparently, from what I've read, due to the loudness wars (also mind boggling that's a thing), some music can be mastered clipped. I just find that so hard to believe an engineer could live with that. However, I hear it so it's either the recording or my equipment.

 

[Chrispy]

Good enough for me, confirms the distortion I heard past -20dB was not all in my head

All other considerations equal, 80 on the absolute scale would be more like -2 on the relative scale

 

[doodlebro]

All other considerations equal, 80 on the absolute scale would be more like -2 on the relative scale

I was driving all channels with some pretty low impedence KEFs all around, much different from the 2 channel test Amir ran and likely a very good way to find the limit of a budget AVR. YMMV.

 

[Chrispy]

I was driving all channels with some pretty low impedence KEFs all around, much different from the 2 channel test Amir ran and likely a very good way to find the limit of a budget AVR. YMMV.

Especially if you used something like the all-ch stereo modes, in a surround mode not as much. Low impedance and avr can be an issue at high levels, tho.

 

[batfunk]

Comrades, we really need to have Denon x4500 or x6500 tested. They sound so much better than Denon x3500 (which in turn measured here better than this x2200), but we need to see objective data. So please, if you happen to have one or are going to buy one - consider offering it to Amirm for testing.

Don't expect for miracIes... I have the x4500 for nearly a year and subjectively speaking, stereo Hi-fi listening on it is awful compared to my old dedicated integrated amp Teac ai-501(close Ax 501 was reviewed by Amir). Sound was hollow and boomy, horrible.
Avr for movie, stereo amp for music, that's my philosophy.

 

[Bear123]

Don't expect for miracIes... I have the x4500 for nearly a year and subjectively speaking, stereo Hi-fi listening on it is awful compared to my old dedicated integrated amp Teac ai-501(close Ax 501 was reviewed by Amir). Sound was hollow and boomy, horrible.
Avr for movie, stereo amp for music, that's my philosophy.

I don't buy this. Testing of the Denon X3500 shows noise and distortion that should be sonically transparent in real world use along with flat frequency response. In other words, no audible alteration of the signal. Sounds like a setup or room correction issue. The 4500 should be similar in objective, factual measured performance i.e. what we actually will hear.