Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review

[Veri]

We, delusional people test things in the system, and keep what sounds good to us.

At least you're honest! but seriously if an opamp change would have such drastic changes in sound I would measure it after, and see what the actual effect is and not just trust me swapping things out and going by "memory". You are greatly overestimating yourself if you think your audio memory is worth that much.

 

[Holmz]

I don't remember mentioning ethernet and yes you can actually have different sounding dacs withe the same chip, as well as similar sounding dacs with different chips.
I have three DACs to test with at the moment. Sound difference is immediately noticeable.
Comparing CPUs is a good enough analogy - you have better single threaded performance with Intel and better multi-threaded performance with AMD.
So it is up to the dev to optimize even if you end up with comparable performance, the same way it is up to the developer of the Dac to properly implement a chip, a power supply, an ouput stage.
I am not comparing noise floors where I agree with you that it doesn't matter. Even if we say that a DAC's job is to turn 1s and 0s to electrical signal it does matter what's in the Dacs output stage. For example - changing the opamp in one of my DACs is giving different results - rolled off highs and better centering of the image. I can promise you it is not subtle at all when you play something harsh.
Anyway, if you don't hear a difference you can just listen to any Dac as long as it supports the necessary formats and has the required ouputs you need. We, delusional people test things in the system, and keep what sounds good to us.

How about an analogy with a pizza, or an aardvark, or a sermon instead?
An analogy with a CPU is a bit different, and one can do thousands of times of CDs data movement in a CPU compared to a DAC.
I guess we can argue that the DAC is multithreaded if it is playing left and right channels… sort of…

Some test that proves that the sound is different could be easier than coming up with analogies.

 

[Artzox]

At least you're honest! but seriously if an opamp change would have such drastic changes in sound I would measure it after, and see what the actual effect is and not just trust me swapping things out and going by "memory". You are greatly overestimating yourself if you think your audio memory is worth that much.

If you listen to the same three songs over and over again and know which passage to listen to I don't think it is overestimating but good enough knowledge of the material. Of course I would measure the difference if I could.

 

[Holmz]

... Of course I would measure the difference if I could.

OK - what is stopping you?

 

[Artzox]

How about an analogy with a pizza, or an aardvark, or a sermon instead?
An analogy with a CPU is a bit different, and one can do thousands of times of CDs data movement in a CPU compared to a DAC.
I guess we can argue that the DAC is multithreaded if it is playing left and right channels… sort of…

Some test that proves that the sound is different could be easier than coming up with analogies.

good one
No need for analogies. Let's just agree to listen to what we like and leave it at that.

 

[Artzox]

OK - what is stopping you?

Lack of hardware to do it would be the prime reason.
There is a measurement on the forum of Opamp swapping and it doesn't show anything conclusive which can explain the changes in sound, hence logically everyone doing opamp swapping must me imagining things.

 

[Veri]

There is a measurement on the forum of Opamp swapping and it doesn't show anything conclusive which can explain the changes in sound, hence logically everyone doing opamp swapping must me imagining things.

Well yes, likely. I know AD797 amps are popular to swap in and they can be driven to oscillation relatively easy if the circuit does not fully support them. So then you might start to hear artifacting, and you might even like the sound of it. But it's a side effect then more then a performance boost. On paper, good opamps should all sound the same, it's more about cost/budget for the manufacturer, to pick the ones that are 'sufficient'. A good designer would try not to overengineer.

 

[Holmz]

Lack of hardware to do it would be the prime reason.
...

An ADC is not cheap… but there are a few.
Topping may have one?
But mine is an RME.
There is also a PC/laptop using the mic input, which cab be an option.

…
There is a measurement on the forum of Opamp swapping and it doesn't show anything conclusive which can explain the changes in sound, …

Let’s assume it is not frequency response. But it could be.
One needs to do some difference in the signals and then look for where it is different and what is different.
Maybe an FFT of the differenced signal.

…, hence logically everyone doing opamp swapping must me imagining things.

It is possible. We just don’t know if it cannot be explained and shown.

 

[Veri]

An ADC is not cheap… but there are a few.
Topping may have one?
But mine is an RME.
There is also a PC/laptop using the mic input, which cab be an option.

And let's not forget the excellent E1DA COSMOS !

 

[Artzox]

Well yes, likely. I know AD797 amps are popular to swap in and they can be driven to oscillation relatively easy if the circuit does not fully support them. So then you might start to hear artifacting, and you might even like the sound of it. But it's a side effect then more then a performance boost. On paper, good opamps should all sound the same, it's more about cost/budget for the manufacturer, to pick the ones that are 'sufficient'. A good designer would try not to overengineer.

To that end I didn't actually like what I heard with a burson. Tube swapping on the hand is a whole other story.
Anyway, nice talking to you guys/gals on the forum, busting myths and all.
Nevertheless I will still keep listening to what I like, even though in theory there should be only subtle nuances.
I did buy an E30 ii based on measurements seen on this forum and didn't like the sound, but maybe it is just me.

 

[Killingbeans]

We, delusional people test things in the system, and keep what sounds good to us.

Of course I would measure the difference if I could.

If you want to get a really good indication af what the measurements would show you, there's the option to "test things in the system" in a more reliable way:

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Veri]

I did buy an E30 ii based on measurements seen on this forum and didn't like the sound, but maybe it is just me.

Guess we're straying a lot from the main topic but what didn't you like about it then? It's just a basic AK4493S implementation with great performance parameters across the line really.

 

[Holmz]

And let's not forget the excellent E1DA COSMOS !

Never heard of it but the specs look good, and the price is a lot friendlier.

 

[zepplock]

I don't remember mentioning ethernet as affecting sound but merely as the source of the music and not being able do a proper comparison component for component. You can actually have different sounding dacs with the the same chip, as well as similar sounding dacs with different chips.
I have three DACs to test with at the moment. Sound difference is immediately noticeable.
Comparing CPUs is a good enough analogy - you have better single threaded performance with Intel and better multi-threaded performance with AMD.
So it is up to the dev to optimize even if you end up with comparable performance, the same way it is up to the developer of the Dac to properly implement a chip, a power supply, an ouput stage.
I am not comparing noise floors where I agree with you that it doesn't matter. Even if we say that a DAC's job is to turn 1s and 0s to electrical signal it does matter what's in the Dacs output stage. For example - changing the opamp in one of my DACs is giving different results - rolled off highs and better centering of the image. I can promise you it is not subtle at all when you play something harsh.
Anyway, if you don't hear a difference you can just listen to any Dac as long as it supports the necessary formats and has the required ouputs you need. We, delusional people test things in the system, and keep what sounds good to us.

you keep contradicting yourself. So different CPUs are different, right? But they all produce 2+2=4. Maybe some are a nanosecond faster than others. Noone buys Intel vs AMD cpus because one is giving 2+2=5 vs the other giving 2+2=4, right? DACs are the same way. All chips perform up to spec. The specs are slightly different, to the point where no human can distinguish. If DACs would output different sounds we would know, first from measurements, and if the difference is big, maybe from out ears.

All in all, you are just fooling yourself, turning this into a cult.

 

[Artzox]

Guess we're straying a lot from the main topic but what didn't you like about it then? It's just a basic AK4493S implementation with great performance parameters across the line really.

Narrow soundstage, artificial precision (instruments sound like cutouts and not 3d like a tube sound but edgy and annoyingly harsh), very forward to the point of claustrophobic with acoustic singing.
That being said, maybe in someone else's system it could sound great, but with my speakers and amp it was tiring to listen to.

 

[Artzox]

you keep contradicting yourself. So different CPUs are different, right? But they all produce 2+2=4. Maybe some are a nanosecond faster than others. Noone buys Intel vs AMD cpus because one is giving 2+2=5 vs the other giving 2+2=4, right? DACs are the same way. All chips perform up to spec. The specs are slightly different, to the point where no human can distinguish. If DACs would output different sounds we would know, first from measurements, and if the difference is big, maybe from out ears.

All in all, you are just fooling yourself, turning this into a cult.

Ok, let's say you are right and DACs perform up to spec, why then do we have a lineup of DACs with almost identical specs from Topping and SMSL and the people who listen to them find differences? Let's just get one and call it a day. Why bother to review and measure nearly identical DACs and have discussions in forums. I really don't care if I am using a Denafrips or a spaceship as long as it sounds good. This is not a brand thing. I didn't know Denafrips or Topping existed 6 months ago, I was listening to vinyl and was a happy camper.

 

[Robbo99999]

Ok, let's say you are right and DACs perform up to spec, why then do we have a lineup of DACs with almost identical specs from Topping and SMSL and the people who listen to them find differences? Let's just get one and call it a day. Why bother to review and measure nearly identical DACs and have discussions in forums. I really don't care if I am using a Denafrips or a spaceship as long as it sounds good. This is not a brand thing. I didn't know Denafrips or Topping existed 6 months ago, I was listening to vinyl and was a happy camper.

Because they're chasing fairies and they don't know it! (the bit I bolded in your post)

which is what you're doing here:

Narrow soundstage, artificial precision (instruments sound like cutouts and not 3d like a tube sound but edgy and annoyingly harsh), very forward to the point of claustrophobic with acoustic singing.
That being said, maybe in someone else's system it could sound great, but with my speakers and amp it was tiring to listen to.

Looking for "synergy" in audio chain components when it doesn't exist and is a figment of people's imagination. Or if you're buying audio chain components that are so non-transparent that they're either changing the sound due to distortion or frequency response, then that's a silly way to try to make a system sound good - you can use EQ for that or just buy anechoic flat speakers.

 

[Killingbeans]

Ok, let's say you are right and DACs perform up to spec, why then do we have a lineup of DACs with almost identical specs from Topping and SMSL

Supply and demand. The demand part isn't necessarily based on sound reasoning. Looks and functionality also plays a big part.

and the people who listen to them find differences?

People hear what they want/expect to hear.

 

[WolfHound]

Just wondering how the new Denafrips ARES 12th Anniversary compares.

ARES 12TH-1 | Denafrips

www.denafrips.com

No reviews yet...

My SMSL M400 just failed and sent for RMA which will take months...
Was contemplating to get a R2R with I2S input say Denafrips ARES 12th Anniversary or Musician Pegasus

Any recommendation?

Thanks in advance

 

[sjeesjie]

Cool! Finally a OS/NOS button that basically does not put it in “real” NOS mode!