Dayton Audio PS180-8 full range project

[ppataki]

Yet another full range project here on ASR (yeah I know......)
After trying a few coax speakers (and still not finished with those!) I have decided that in the meantime I will make a slight return to my favorite speaker category

This time the Dayton Audio PS180-8 is going to be on the carpet!

It is a 6.5" paper/kevlar cone full range speaker with neodymium magnet, phase plug and a whizzer cone and a pretty high sensitivity of about 94-95dB (simulated values)
On-axis and off-axis frequency response are all rubbish as you can see it here but being a full range driver this is kind of normal - I will apply heavy DSP anyway so I don't mind (yes I know that will not fix the poor off-axis response)
Dayton Audio also provides some Klippel analysis for this driver here

At first I will try these in my closed sphere cabinets, crossed to my subs at 80Hz using linear phase 24dB/octave crossover (Fabfilter Pro-Q 4)
Simulation looks like this:

X-max limited max. input power will be around 60W at 80Hz

That will provide 103+6 = 109dB of max. SPL at 80Hz at 1 meter (for stereo)

The drivers are on their way already, they will either arrive on Friday or latest on Monday
Shall they arrive already on Friday I will post all the measurements during the weekend already
Stay tuned!

 

[ppataki]

The speakers have arrived today - I really like how they look, really cool!!

Measurements to follow later today!

 

[ppataki]

Now let's see the measurements but before that I was performing some fart-tests with the driver to hear if there is any air leakage and/or motor noise occurring (in a closed cabinet)
I am happy to report that these drivers are totally silent, zero air leakage or motor noise! Lately all the drivers I tested had air leakage issues, but not this one - very well made!

See a video about it here:

New video by Peter Pataki

photos.app.goo.gl

All the measurements were performed in the MLP (approx. 250cm from the speakers)

Left speaker frequency response (without any DSP or corrections)

As expected from a full range driver, there are some wiggles even well above the Schroeder frequency

Distortion is high below 200Hz but now I start to suspect that this might be room related since it is there whichever speaker driver I use....

This is how L+R looks like with a low shelf filter added:

And this is the response with manual EQ (just wanted to check how EQ-able it is)

Looks pretty good to me!

I have integrated them with my subs and applied Dirac and this is how it sounds:

New video by Peter Pataki

photos.app.goo.gl

I don't want to draw any conclusions since this is a very early stage but I can already say that the sound is extremely 'live' - none of the coax drivers that I have recently tried could come close to this, let alone the multi-way speakers (like the Adam Audio T5V)

I will perform and share further measurements post-Dirac this evening

 

[ppataki]

Here are the measurements post Dirac:

I have noticed that dip around 80Hz so I have applied an All Pass filter at 80Hz and it looks better now:

Distortion is not good between 100 and 200Hz.....

I am sure it has to do something with the room too....
If the Daytons stay (and I guess they will) then I might modify my sphere cabinets to become ported to see if that would make any change whatsoever

Group delay:

Spectrogram:

Waterfall:

Overall I am pretty satisfied with the results!

More on the subjective experience probably in a week or so; I still would like to give some time to the drivers to fully break in.
What I can already tell is that I prefer their sound to the Markaudio MAOPs; it sounds less 'metallic' (easier to listen to) and the soundstage sounds wider too. The holography is extremely good but that is to be expected from full range drivers anyway.

 

[a4eaudio]

Cool project!! Looking forward to the subjective listening impressions. I have the PS220's that I hope to do something with next year.

 

[mhardy6647]

I'd be more concerned about that dip at 600 Hz (FWIW).

 

[ppataki]

I'd be more concerned about that dip at 600 Hz (FWIW).

I am not sure what I can do with that - apart from fixing it with brute-force EQ

 

[mhardy6647]

Thus the heartache of "fullrange" (extended range) drivers -- the cure(s) can be worse than the affliction.
I am empathetic, having fiddled with (many, many) extended range drivers for decades.

These are very nice, although I haven't measured their FR (or anything else, for that matter) -- to date.
I have been listening to them quite a bit recently.

 

[eddantes]

Any idea of what the directivity would look like? I've always wondered what drivers with parasitic cones produce in dispersion charts.

 

[ppataki]

Any idea of what the directivity would look like? I've always wondered what drivers with parasitic cones produce in dispersion charts.

In the first post I have linked the manufacturer's specs
Based on that dispersion looks sh*tty, as one would anticipate from a full range driver

Unfortunately I am not able to perform proper measurements for off-axis. I could only do that in-room (in-corner....) and I guess it would be highly inaccurate

 

[ppataki]

Thus the heartache of "fullrange" (extended range) drivers -- the cure(s) can be worse than the affliction.

In my case the affliction wins I guess
One of these days I will apply a forced correction there and check if distortion increases or not - if not, then I guess it shall be fine
(I am not worried about amp load, I have plenty of power + I don't listen very loud anyway)

 

[mhardy6647]

Chances are, you won't hear (more to the point, be bothered by) increased distortion per se nearly as much (if at all) relative to frequency response anomalies.
It's testable -- do let us know!
(EDIT: realizing, and acknowledging that, at some point, harmonic distortion peaks are frequency response anomalies. )

And -- knowing this will be taken as heretical at a place like this in 2025 CE -- if you have reasonably flat on-axis response, and listen on axis in a reasonably well behaved room, funny business with frequency-dependent change in dispersion may well not bother you much, either.

Applying corrections could do more psychoacoustic harm than good. This being said, such corrections, and their effect(s), are both testable and reversible.

As the Brits are (or at least used to be?) fond of saying: suck it and see. (which isn't nearly as inappropriate a sentiment as it sounds, at least to American ears!).

 

[ppataki]

I am empathetic, having fiddled with (many, many) extended range drivers for decades.

This is approx. my 15th full range project so I can totally relate to that

It is way early to say this but I reckon that in this size these are easily the best ones I have tried so far (I will comment on the subjective part in details next week)

And -- knowing this will be taken as heretical at a place like this in 2025 CE -- if you have reasonably flat on-axis response, and listen on axis in a reasonably well behaved room, funny business with frequency-dependent change in dispersion may well not bother you much, either.

You might have just started an avalanche here but I personally fully agree with that. I always listen on-axis and optimize for on-axis too. I have tried speakers with excellent directivity (Adam Audio T5V recently) and I could only acknowledge that when standing up and walking around the room. Full range speakers are a one-man show as I used to say whereas the Adams for example can be enjoyed by anybody/anywhere in the room.

Btw. beaming has an advantage as well, if one takes a look at the IR graphs of these Daytons (or any full range drivers) vs. the Adams (or any multi-way speakers), the former is much cleaner than the latter (because of less reflections)

 

[mhardy6647]

Indeed.
One may choose to work against the room, or with it.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

Thanks for posting, I wish you would spend more time on off-axis measurements - doesn't have to be a full Spinorama, even ungated tells a lot in case of full-range speakers. This wall of EQ'd in-room responses and time domain measurements of your room isn't quite as useful.

 

[Hipocrates]

if you have reasonably flat on-axis response, and listen on axis in a reasonably well behaved room, funny business with frequency-dependent change in dispersion may well not bother you much, either.

How dare you sir.... how DARE you?!

Very cool project, thanks for share

 

[ppataki]

And now let's see my subjective experience

I have been using these speakers for almost 3 weeks now so I think it is time to share some totally subjective comments too

General observations:
- don't use these without DSP and without knowing what you are doing with DSP - as one would expect looking at the graphs, without DSP, they sound pretty horrible. All my comments below are valid when used with extensive DSP!
- definitely use one or more subwoofer(s) to help the low end

The pros
- I know I have said this before to some of my previous full range drivers but the truth is that these are indeed by far the best full range drivers in this size category (6.5") that I have ever listened to (and if you check my previous DIY posts you will see that I do have experience with many of those)
- holography is insanely good, you feel that you could even touch the musicians in the room
- the soundstage of full range speakers is usually very narrow, it is 'cut' besides the speakers, in other words the soundstage does not extend beyond the physical speaker location horizontally - not with these ones tough! Soundstage is as wide as with a multi-way speaker - really jaw-dropping, room filling experience
- talking about filling the room: when you move on the couch or stand up you won't lose 'half the sound' like with other full range speakers, the dispersion sounds much wider (maybe due to the phase plug and the whizzer cone?)
- 3D depth is superb, also is the way the speakers 'disappear' (the latter is quite typical with point-source drivers btw.)
- vocals sound full and 'meaty' and also very much brought forward in the phantom center
- the 'immersion' experience is one of the bests I have heard in my living room so far (including even 12" and 15" full range drivers but also whichever multi-way speaker I had)
- very dynamic sound

The cons
- Treble, as expected is not quite as clean and detailed as with a dedicated tweeter - however I need to add that these full range speakers indeed have the most detailed highs I have ever heard (in the full range speaker category)
- as mentioned above, it needs a ton of DSP: I am using pre-EQ (two low shelf filters to linearize the response starting from 700Hz and below) then Dirac Live (full correction and flat target curve) then post-EQ (Eiosis AirEQ Premium to add a high shelf and two low shelves)

Overall they are a keeper to me, they are definitely staying!
They are very strongly recommended (if you have DSP capability)

I am now even tempted to try its bigger brother, the PS220.... if anybody has experience with those please let me know