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David Chesky on Streaming Convenience vs Sound Quality

But his opinion - even based on his own results - was objectively wrong. Yet he is stating his "opinion" as though it is objective fact. "Downloads are better than streaming"

That is not what we do here, and we point it out when others do it also. We are not in a world where his opinion is as valid as engineering fact.
Nobody is arguing whether his conclusion is wrong or right. That was clearly expressed. I only take ombrage with the manner the rebuttals were expressed, attacking the man instead of his position. That to me is shameful and predatory.
 
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The fact that things will progress does not mean those who contradict what science and engineering tell us are almost certainly true now will be proven correct in the long run. By your logic, we aren't allowed to be hostile to any concept, no matter how outlandish, since there's always the prospect of learning something new tomorrow.

Requiring us to acquiesce to all inanities for the sake of not "assassinating" someone's character will destroy us faster than a little bit of earned animosity, I think.
You do realize that most of what we know about science today are theories, right? Real science always reserves the right to change drastically at any time. Real science always keeps an open mind.
 
You do realize that most of what we know about science today are theories, right? Real science always reserves the right to change drastically at any time. Real science always keeps an open mind.
Something that is the foundation for perfectly performing models isn't that lacking. Call it science or applied science (aka engineering), we have stuff that works amazingly well.

Science has never claimed to be truth. It's people that don't understand science that claim that. Philosophy is the discipline that tries to concern itself with the nature of truth. Unfortunately good audio is not based on philosophy, but directly based on applied science.
 
I have always found it curious that a small handful 60-80 year old men have apparently the most golden ears on earth. Also they all happen know each other and have worked together a ton and depend on agreeing about a huge number of topics to all make their respective livings. What are the odds?
 
Nope, just asking you want we are missing re: basic science. That myriad of things not yet captured in current scientific audio testing.

No one is saying speaker technology can't advance. Not because there are deep unknown mysteries of sound and acoustics to be unearthed, but because speakers are kind of crude devices inherently. And room acoustics are a hard problem to address *easily*, so the advances there will be in ease of use and effectiveness, and, I hope, cheapness.

Tell us where audio testing is failing. How is a null test failing to show audible difference?
Just because you are comfortable with where we are today doesn’t mean we have arrived. I hope the next generation questions everything I tell them today. Nothing is settled (except maybe the laws of thermodynamics), everything should be questioned. I will only give you my favorite answer to your question: I don’t know. I am still thinking.
 
Here we go again. Maybe he created HDtracks because he believed it is better than streaming. We can disagree with someone without making him a villain. Just the facts suffice, motives are much more complicated to deal with. A little bit of civility never hurts.
Sorry I don't believe the guy is genuine, salesmen rarely are so why shouldn't I say it?
 
Sorry I don't believe the guy is genuine, salesmen rarely are so why shouldn't I say it?
Exactly, these people don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. They can damn well prove that what they offer is genuine!
 
Received a newsletter from "The Audiophile Society" today. David Chesky on Streaming Convenience vs Sound Quality

Now I have to unsubscribe after reading so much nonsense...

WHY DOWNLOADS ARE BETTER THAN STREAMINGS

The Audiophile's Dilemma: Streaming Convenience or Sound Quality?
To me, streaming is simply a modern variation of FM radio. In my experience, it doesn’t sound as good as playing a local file—a conclusion shared by other respected audio critics. While streaming is convenient and accessible, it falls short as a true audiophile experience.
Here’s how I arrived at this observation.
My son, Lucca, is starting a speaker company, and I’ve listened to countless versions of his speakers, testing various brands and sizes of internal speaker cables from the crossover to the drivers. Despite identical setups, we consistently hear significant differences between wire configurations, even when measurements suggest they should sound the same. To clarify, we’re not conducting formal double-blind testing here; one person plays the files while the other listens, drawing on our experiences as listeners. With over 50 years as a pianist, composer, orchestrator, and producer of nearly a thousand albums, I trust my musical memory, which I believe extends to tonality as well. In music, we accept pitch memory as valid—so why not tonal memory? I believe that all serious audiophiles who have done critical listening to hi-fi systems over time have developed tonal memories, which is why we might prefer one amp over another.
While testing the speakers, we began comparing streaming audio to local audio files using the same listening methods we applied to the cables. In every case, local files consistently sounded richer and more nuanced, much like live music. On one occasion, we noticed an even greater degradation in streaming quality when another computer in the house was uploading simultaneously. And this listening was done with state-of-the-art audiophile D/A converters that re-clock the data. In spite of this, the stream and local files still sounded different.
This raises a key question: What defines "better," and why do local files sound better to my ears? For a benchmark, I rely on the sound of live music. Streaming files often have an "etched" quality, a kind of artificial resolution, like turning up the contrast on a TV. By contrast, local files offer subtle, rich tones without exaggerated sharpness. Think of it this way: apparent resolution is like fluorescent colors, while real resolution is akin to examining the fine weave of a sweater in real life, where every detail is visible, but nothing unnaturally jumps out. This brings up an aesthetic question as well—do people prefer the "etched" sound of streaming (like canned peas) or the natural, fuller sound of a local file (fresh peas)?
The real mystery to me is that when we capture both files in a Digital Audio Workstation, they null out. So what causes the difference in sound? Even though it’s a digital signal, could it be some triboelectric effect over long wires? Could all the complex connections across the web be picking up electrical noise along the way, degrading the sound during playback?
After downloading and confirming that the files were identical, the streamed version still sounded different in real-time playback. Perhaps there's an "X factor" not yet captured in current scientific testing. But with my extensive experience in live and recorded music, I trust my ears over any graph. The new question for me is are there limitations in current digital audio measurement techniques that fail to capture all perceptible differences in sound quality?
In the end, for casual background music, streaming is fine. But when I want to truly listen and assess the quality of a system, I’ll always opt for a local file.
David Chesky​
TL;DR?
 
Something that is the foundation for perfectly performing models isn't that lacking. Call it science or applied science (aka engineering), we have stuff that works amazingly well.

Science has never claimed to be truth. It's people that don't understand science that claim that. Philosophy is the discipline that tries to concern itself with the nature of truth. Unfortunately good audio is not based on philosophy, but directly based on applied science.
Don’t limit your mind, man. I am most likely older than you at 68 and I don’t mind when people move my cheese. All I am saying is, it’s Ok to be civil with one another and that things can and will change for the better. Merry Christmas.
 
I have always found it curious that a small handful 60-80 year old men have apparently the most golden ears on earth. Also they all happen know each other and have worked together a ton and depend on agreeing about a huge number of topics to all make their respective livings. What are the odds?
Would this not be true of any profession, avocation or hobby? I think people can see and learn things from education, training, successes and failure. Why buy better gear if one doesn't believe that one can hear higher quality more realistic sound. I think someone like Amir or Erin hear good and bad things right away. Deterioration does not mean complete cessation of all hearing quality.
 
I have always found it curious that a small handful 60-80 year old men have apparently the most golden ears on earth. Also they all happen know each other and have worked together a ton and depend on agreeing about a huge number of topics to all make their respective livings. What are the odds?
lol
 
.. All I am saying is, it’s Ok to be civil with one another and that things can and will change for the better. Merry Christmas.
It would be interesting to establish the average age of us participants here. At 60, I don't consider myself a spring chicken.

My comments were directed at the opinion expressed in the first post. Merry Christmas to You!
 
You do realize that most of what we know about science today are theories, right?
Tell me you don't know what a theory is without saying you don't know what a theory is. :cool:

If you actually have your claimed MSEE, I'd be asking for a refund.
 
Just because you are comfortable with where we are today doesn’t mean we have arrived. I hope the next generation questions everything I tell them today. Nothing is settled (except maybe the laws of thermodynamics), everything should be questioned. I will only give you my favorite answer to your question: I don’t know. I am still thinking.

maybe read some more and then re-think. What you don't know isn't neccessarily what 'science' doesn't know.
 
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You do realize that most of what we know about science today are theories, right? Real science always reserves the right to change drastically at any time. Real science always keeps an open mind.

They aren't theories, a word with a special meaning, but in essence all science claims are expressions of probability.

So, science doesn't advance by reinventing the wheel every time. It doesn't assume all possibilities remain equally probable. If something works, it stays until it doesn't.

You keep failing to tell us, what myriad of things are wrong or inadequate with audio testing?
 
You do realize that most of what we know about science today are theories, right? Real science always reserves the right to change drastically at any time. Real science always keeps an open mind.
So what. Science might change based on new observations that disprove an existing theory. But that won't change all the observations we can make now. What we can see, feel, touch, measure - won't suddenly dissappear in a puff of smoke when something new comes along. Science can only change to adapt to new observations - but it has to include all the existing observations. Further this adjustment of science tends to happen in fields where there are gaps in our understanding. For example, in astrophysics where we are unable to explain the reasons for the observed rate of expansion of the universe.

And here is the thing, Audio is amongst the simplest of sciences. It is low frequency - esasy to measure, and we've been doing it electrically for nigh on 150 years. There are no gaps in our understanding, nothing we observe is inexplicable. There are no gaps for unexpected observations to occur. Even if they do, it won’t alter everything we can observe and measure at present.
 
Just because you are comfortable with where we are today doesn’t mean we have arrived. I hope the next generation questions everything I tell them today. Nothing is settled (except maybe the laws of thermodynamics), everything should be questioned. I will only give you my favorite answer to your question: I don’t know. I am still thinking.
But the null test of streams vs. downloads is a case of 2 - 2 = 0. There's no other way to interpret this. So, there's no reason to defend Mr. Chesky, he actually admits that, according to a universally accepted test, there is absolutely no reason to think that downloads would sound different than streams.

End of discussion.
 
You do realize that most of what we know about science today are theories, right? Real science always reserves the right to change drastically at any time. Real science always keeps an open mind.
Customarily, branches of scientific knowledge are called theories. And so, we have Theory of Electromagnetic Field, Automata Theory, Circuit Theory, etc, etc. Scientists and engineers can draw conclusions from "theories", because theories consist of assertions proved to be true.
 
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