DAC/Amp combo for ~$400

[starfly]

So I'm looking for a good DAC/Amp combo for around $400 - $500

Must haves:
- low impedance single-end headphone out
- balanced line out for powered speakers (XLR)
- main volume control will control both headphones (when plugged in) or speakers
- good Windows 10 drivers that allow for problem free use and stability. Should also allow for seemless sample rate switching from file to file when using software such as foobar through WASAPI or ASIO.

Nice to have:
- display to see sample rate and stream type (pcm, dsd, etc.)
- digital volume control so there is always perfect channel balance
- small form factor
- additional balanced headphone output

I had looked at the Topping DX3 Pro, but it doesn't have a balanced line out which with powered speakers I believe can cause issues at higher volumes (such as a hum, etc). Also don't know if the main volume control on that will affect the line-out (so that it would function as volume control for my speakers). Otherwise the DX3 ticks all the boxes.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[Veri]

I had looked at the Topping DX3 Pro, but it doesn't have a balanced line out which with powered speakers I believe can cause issues at higher volumes (such as a hum, etc). Also don't know if the main volume control on that will affect the line-out (so that it would function as volume control for my speakers).

Yep, volume control works in pre-amp mode too. So besides balanced it does seem to tick all the boxes.
There are many people using the DX3 for powered speakers already, so RCA does work well enough. Can't beat DX3 price.

 

[starfly]

Yep, volume control works in pre-amp mode too. So besides balanced it does seem to tick all the boxes.
There are many people using the DX3 for powered speakers already, so RCA does work well enough. Can't beat DX3 price.

Yeah, the price is very good indeed. Anything with balanced outputs starts to get a lot more expensive. I may just give it a shot, and if I detect noise issues through the powered speakers, apparently getting an unbalanced > balanced converter will solve that and those go for around $80.

But I'll try to do a little more research before I pull the trigger on anything.

Is there anything else out there in my price range I should be looking at? Saw that Topping will also be releasing DX7 Pro (which will probably be at least $600 and not until probably September). Too bad the DX7s has higher output impedance, as most of my headphones are fairly sensitive, otherwise that ticks many boxes.

 

[Roen]

If the volume will control the speaker volume via line out, then it's not a line out anymore.

 

[Veri]

If the volume will control the speaker volume via line out, then it's not a line out anymore.

Well, just terminology. In the DX3 you can switch between line-out and pre-amp mode

 

[Biblob]

If you want balanced XLR the cheapest way is the SMSL SU-8 (v2) ~$250. So maybe do this for speakers and a Khadas board + JDS Atom for headphones? Together it would be around $450-500. I don't remember any integrated headamps ones being in this price range.

Or wait for the Khadas team to launch a XLR-version of the Khadas board. If I remember correctly it woud launch end of 2019.

 

[starfly]

If you want balanced XLR the cheapest way is the SMSL SU-8 (v2) ~$250. So maybe do this for speakers and a Khadas board + JDS Atom for headphones? Together it would be around $450-500. I don't remember any integrated headamps ones being in this price range.

Or wait for the Khadas team to launch a XLR-version of the Khadas board. If I remember correctly it woud launch end of 2019.

Thanks, but ideally I'd easily be able to control my speakers with a volume knob. I'd be using this setup with my PC, underneath my monitor and having to use a remote to adjust volume output on the DAC wouldn't be my preferred way to operate things.

I'm otherwise definitely open to using a standalone DAC + Amp, provided the DAC can be connected to the Amp with balanced output/input, and the Amp can then through a pre-amp feed a balanced signal to my active speakers and then switch between pre-amp or headphone out (and headphone out has low output impedance).

But from what I've looked at today, going that route will significantly raise the price point. At this point I'm leaning towards just going for a DX3 Pro which performs very well for an all-in-one solution and forgoing the balanced output to my speakers (and getting an unbalanced > balanced converter if I audibly detect any noise/distortion).

 

[peder2tm]

scarlett 2i4 + jds labs atom?
or clarett 2pre if you don't want two boxes (the headphone amp is much louder than 2i4, but I think it is around 10 ohm output impedance).

 

[starfly]

scarlett 2i4 + jds labs atom?
or clarett 2pre if you don't want two boxes (the headphone amp is much louder than 2i4, but I think it is around 10 ohm output impedance).

Ha, I currently have a Scarlett 2i2 (Gen 1) which I'm trying to replace as the drivers suck. Regularly causes my Win10 system to crash. So I'm not buying another Focusrite product again.

I actually bought a Motu Ultralite Mk4 interface to replace it with, and while it's a great interface, it's not so great for "audiophile" use (i.e. music playback), as when switching between sample rates there's always a bit of a delay, and sometimes the song plays back at the wrong sample rate until you restart playback. For its intended use in a DAW where sample rate doesn't need to change frequently I'm sure it's great, but I'm returning the Motu as it doesn't meet my needs.

Now I primarily want something that will play back audio well on my desktop PC, preferable an all-in-one package like the DX3 (DX7s would have been near perfect if it weren't for the high output impedance of the headphone jack), but otherwise separate DAC/AMP would be fine too as long as the foot print wouldn't be too huge.

Is Schiit good these days? I actually started out with a Schiit Modi Uber/Magni combo but ended up selling them as those things got super hot which just didn't seem right to me when other manufacturers can build stuff that stays nice and cool.

What's up with all the Schiit / Topping / ASR/Head-Fi/SBAF hatred anyway? Did I miss something?

 

[Biblob]

Thanks, but ideally I'd easily be able to control my speakers with a volume knob. I'd be using this setup with my PC, underneath my monitor and having to use a remote to adjust volume output on the DAC wouldn't be my preferred way to operate things.

I'm otherwise definitely open to using a standalone DAC + Amp, provided the DAC can be connected to the Amp with balanced output/input, and the Amp can then through a pre-amp feed a balanced signal to my active speakers and then switch between pre-amp or headphone out (and headphone out has low output impedance).

But from what I've looked at today, going that route will significantly raise the price point. At this point I'm leaning towards just going for a DX3 Pro which performs very well for an all-in-one solution and forgoing the balanced output to my speakers (and getting an unbalanced > balanced converter if I audibly detect any noise/distortion).

I think you will get a remote or, if not get one from SMSL. And with this remote you can control the volume. And otherwise digital volume control in your plugin is fine as well.

Edit: it does come with a remote control to control the volume etc

 

[Tks]

What's up with all the Schiit / Topping / ASR/Head-Fi/SBAF hatred anyway? Did I miss something?

Basically:

Schitt, disliked by many people who value measurements and good practice (aside from the decent value of the Modi 3 explicitly for $100), the Magni 3 was also okay until the JDS Labs Atom released and instantly made it obsolete (and many other amps if balanced isn't something you're hell-bent on).

Topping, disliked by many subjectivist higher end groups, simply because they dislike any Eastern produced gear regardless. Some give things like Mytek a pass for instance (because they're willing to charge price tags those groups see as proper prices for audio gear). Though it must be said, the recent DX3 Pro debacle with slightly more than coincidental reports of failures are leaving a sour taste in some peoples mouths even after the firmware upgrades, and a true fix is probably hardware (a fix a user was offered would have raise the output impedance to 15 ohms, which is basically unacceptable).

ASR, disliked by science deniers and subjectivists in totality. It stands in contrarian to their baseless beliefs, and threatens their way of initiating folks into audio and specifically their brand of how audio ought be approached.

Head-Fi, disliked by proponents of science, and some of Reddit as well for the heavy voodoo that passes as the norm (heavy subjectivist lean), of which largely goes unchallenged anymore as many have given up somewhat it seems. Though folks at the helm take measurments serious with reviews and testing, it's mostly the bewildered user-base that is plagued by this issue.

SBAF, similar to Head-Fi with a serious amount of subjectivsts (more than the generally diverse and homogenized group Head-Fi is by comparison). Exmaples: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ally-good-or-just-overhyped.7908/#post-262050

 

[starfly]

Basically:

Schitt, disliked by many people who value measurements and good practice (aside from the decent value of the Modi 3 explicitly for $100), the Magni 3 was also okay until the JDS Labs Atom released and instantly made it obsolete (and many other amps if balanced isn't something you're hell-bent on).

Topping, disliked by many subjectivist higher end groups, simply because they dislike any Eastern produced gear regardless. Some give things like Mytek a pass for instance (because they're willing to charge price tags those groups see as proper prices for audio gear). Though it must be said, the recent DX3 Pro debacle with slightly more than coincidental reports of failures are leaving a sour taste in some peoples mouths even after the firmware upgrades, and a true fix is probably hardware (a fix a user was offered would have raise the output impedance to 15 ohms, which is basically unacceptable).

ASR, disliked by science deniers and subjectivists in totality. It stands in contrarian to their baseless beliefs, and threatens their way of initiating folks into audio and specifically their brand of how audio ought be approached.

Head-Fi, disliked by proponents of science, and some of Reddit as well for the heavy voodoo that passes as the norm (heavy subjectivist lean), of which largely goes unchallenged anymore as many have given up somewhat it seems. Though folks at the helm take measurments serious with reviews and testing, it's mostly the bewildered user-base that is plagued by this issue.

SBAF, similar to Head-Fi with a serious amount of subjectivsts (more than the generally diverse and homogenized group Head-Fi is by comparison). Exmaples: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ally-good-or-just-overhyped.7908/#post-262050

I guess I just don't understand why there would be so much dislike towards an objective approach of reviewing audio gear, in particular gear such as amps and dacs which shouldn't really be subjected to much subjective interpretation anyway. It either converts the digital stream to analog perfectly, or it doesn't. It either introduces noise and distortion or it doesn't. And it either provides enough power for your headphones or speakers, or it doesn't.

That's the beauty of the scientific method, whether you like the outcome or not, it's the truth, and it's repeatable. No need to make up all these fantastic words that are so common in audiophile land that don't really mean anything. I sometimes read subjective reviews and I'm flabbergasted by all the nonsense terms people make up to describe something. "This amp sounds like a swan flapping its wings on a serene pond out in the mountains at moonlight" or something like that.

Anyway, I'm also on head-fi and what I find annoying is that people always get so caught up in the latest hype. A new headphone is released, so it must be the best ever, and everyone starts salivating over it. I do get that with headphones and speakers it will be more prone to subjective interpretation. But at least with dacs and amps, you don't have to.

Back to this, I am a bit wary of buying the DX3 Pro because of the higher than average reported issues. I know that with electronics there will always be a certain failure rate. I'm wondering now if I should get the D50 + Atom, which seems like it would be a good combo. I do really like the form factor of the DX3 though, but yeah... not sure I want to take a chance on that.

 

[Crane]

For combo units besides the topping you have ones that weren't specifically measured but are around your price range and have their other products measured here:
- Aune S6 ( I believe on massdrop is going for 360$? because the new pro version is coming out)
- Sabaj D5 (470$?)

on the topic of D50+ atom, you might as well get the SMSL SU8+atom for the balanced connection. I'm sure problems are bound to be faced with any product, just need that good support/customer service for returns.

 

[Veri]

- Aune S6 ( I believe on massdrop is going for 360$? because the new pro version is coming out)
- Sabaj D5 (470$?)

S6 Pro with AK4497 is already out, slightly better specs. But @amirm has an Aune S6. He said already it was nothing impressive, but no official ASR review so far, backlog too full :<
Already on the D5 zero reliable information besides head-fi chatter.

 

[starfly]

S6 Pro with AK4497 is already out, slightly better specs. But @amirm has an Aune S6. He said already it was nothing impressive, but no official ASR review so far, backlog too full :<
Already on the D5 zero reliable information besides head-fi chatter.

Yeah I believe the Aune S6 didn't have a very good headphone out stage, so don't want to buy the S6 Pro if it hasn't been measured yet. Otherwise on paper it ticks all the boxes.

 

[starfly]

For combo units besides the topping you have ones that weren't specifically measured but are around your price range and have their other products measured here:
- Aune S6 ( I believe on massdrop is going for 360$? because the new pro version is coming out)
- Sabaj D5 (470$?)

on the topic of D50+ atom, you might as well get the SMSL SU8+atom for the balanced connection. I'm sure problems are bound to be faced with any product, just need that good support/customer service for returns.

If the SU8 came in black I'd maybe consider it

 

[Tks]

I guess I just don't understand why there would be so much dislike towards an objective approach of reviewing audio gear, in particular gear such as amps and dacs which shouldn't really be subjected to much subjective interpretation anyway. It either converts the digital stream to analog perfectly, or it doesn't. It either introduces noise and distortion or it doesn't. And it either provides enough power for your headphones or speakers, or it doesn't.

That's the beauty of the scientific method, whether you like the outcome or not, it's the truth, and it's repeatable. No need to make up all these fantastic words that are so common in audiophile land that don't really mean anything. I sometimes read subjective reviews and I'm flabbergasted by all the nonsense terms people make up to describe something. "This amp sounds like a swan flapping its wings on a serene pond out in the mountains at moonlight" or something like that.

Anyway, I'm also on head-fi and what I find annoying is that people always get so caught up in the latest hype. A new headphone is released, so it must be the best ever, and everyone starts salivating over it. I do get that with headphones and speakers it will be more prone to subjective interpretation. But at least with dacs and amps, you don't have to.

Back to this, I am a bit wary of buying the DX3 Pro because of the higher than average reported issues. I know that with electronics there will always be a certain failure rate. I'm wondering now if I should get the D50 + Atom, which seems like it would be a good combo. I do really like the form factor of the DX3 though, but yeah... not sure I want to take a chance on that.

Real quickly to go over the points, it's a simple matter of the natural phenomena to resist long-held modes of thinking. If you have been living this whole time building your life around non-critical thought (for the most part), then any form of critical thought that runs in opposition to the continuation of your way of life is instantly shut down by the mind almost naturally. The longer you go on without being uneducated in proper forms of thinking, the worse it becomes trying to get out of the indoctrinated state. Even in classical Roman educational systems, they can courses where they teach "Rhetoric". Now you might be asking why would they teach people who to employ such a thing.. because that's the best way to immunize yourself from it. This was a profound way of thinking as you can imagine in the classical world. It's why today you have so much opposition teaching people certain things, or ways of thinking, because as a whole it could lead to the macro version of what realization/understanding could bring on the individual version (people actually being smart enough to the point where long established social norms, economics, and politics would be upended to a serious degree). The most you get in schools today is of course the regular education on how to do your job or have enough money to eat hopefully, and at beast you're told something like 'rhetoric' exists. But you're never actually taught on how to deploy or use such things (taboo, and naturally perceived as dangerous).

As for the Topping DX3 Pro, this thing has sold vasts amounts of units, I'm not seeing THAT many people complain about it, and I have one here that shut down once in the span of 4 months now. No actual issues, but then again it's kept in a nice place without much temp fluctuations or doing anything more serous than powering HD600's and a pair of Bose powered speakers my neighbor didn't want anymore (got them for basically free, so perfect for my second computer rig). Topping seems cool about the issue, so I feel fine even if it goes belly-up (for $200, we still don't have a shred that comes close to what this offers in such a small package).

 

[starfly]

I think at this point I'm just going to hold off from buying anything and will make do with my Scarlett 2i2. I'll either wait for the DX7 Pro to see what that brings, or see if I can get a good deal on a used DX7s and combine that with a JDS Labs Atom amp. I saw the Aune S6 Pro but looks like that won't be very good, or at least, not in the headphone amp stage and at that price I definitely want an all-in-one package.

 

[Tks]

Good idea on waiting for the DX7 Pro if you could.

 

[ScofieldKid]

You can add AVS Forum. Those guys are pretty hard core on the double-blind testing methodology as well, like here.