D90 mqa vs M400, which one should I use?

[hmscott]

I'm thinking about picking up a d90 mqa even though I have a m400. The rca on the m400 is a little messed up but I will only be using the xlr anyway. Comments and opinions please.

Now that half of this thread is about pro<>con MQA ....
What is the answer then to the OP ?
D90(MQA) or M400 ?

Oh man! SMSL needs to get their act together. First the SU8 disaster, then the M500 mess and now the M400 crisis (coz it is very expensive!)...technically off course, may not be sonically!

I was myself a beta tester for SMSL when i bought their earlier batches of M500 stock and then the whole chip heating up and losing performance mess happened. I was fortunate to get a new one and still am using it, but the scar remains.

From what ive read on this thread, Amir didnt detect any issues in the DAC apart from the lower SPDIF input performance. He didnt detect linearity issues as he stated its 'text book perfect' or something (unless that linearity is not the linearity later found to be tilted clockwise). Then came some news about the M400 being a non-linear DAC...kind of having a clock wise tilt in FR...which was such a bummer already. Then came the explanation from SMSL that RCA has been made DELIBERATELY in such a way for that output to sound more musical ...thereby admitting to the crisis and Quality issues with the expectations that the users will replace caps...for a USD 810 Chinese device...sorry to sound redundant as if i am repeating the story but WTF SMSL? Cant you guys make one high end DAC right the first time around like maybe Topping does?

PS. I love the fact that we live in this era when manufacturers cant really get away with selling sub-par products without them being called out...

That's interesting I hadn't been following the M400 "problems" so I hadn't heard about the RCA being a little messed up, but then again, so is the A90 / D90 MQA a little messed up - it is sensitive to noise across RCA and RCA + XLR connections (for me at least):

If you are going to pair the D90 MQA with the A90 just be aware you may have issues with using RCA only interconnects in some power / EMI / RFI realms - they are sensitive to outside "noise" brought in on the cables. We were aware of this early on so in addition to the RCA interconnects I usually use I also ordered a pair of XLR cables which when used alone - no RCA interconnects - the A90 and D90 MQA works noiselessly - no power grounding noise and noise from the USB cable brought in from my PC to the D90 was blocked.

It took me a while but I found RCA cables built for noise rejection that do well enough to give noise free operation from Low Gain to Medium Gain and in High Gain it's noiseless in gaps between music up to about 2 o'clock on the volume dial, then the noise is again present.

Here are the cables I used, new RCA, XLR, USB cables - less expensive and sound better of course because they remove the noise and lower the noise floor, I'm left with a black background even with my most sensitive IEM's. This post and one I replied to in it have the links and details:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-475832

The D90 MQA is flexible with it's DAC mode(output mode fixed to highest output drive to A90) and PRE mode (variable output drive) in PRE mode - it allows me to lower the drive to the A90 for the few sensitive IEM's and headphones I have that would otherwise be limited to a small range on the volume dial. It's easy to set the output of the D90 MQA in PRE mode to -6dB, -9dB, on up to -30dB and gain more range on the A90 volume dial.

I'm thinking about picking up a d90 mqa even though I have a m400. The rca on the m400 is a little messed up but I will only be using the xlr anyway. Comments and opinions please.

In the end, with the right cabling mix to fit one's needs now and in the long term (configurations change over time) I am very happy with the audio out of the D90 MQA / A90 combination and would heartily recommend it.

As to whether I recommend the D90 or D90 MQA I would say that there is nothing wrong with the D90 MQA in use even if you never use MQA services or media. I've certainly had many devices over the years with marketing stickers for protocol and process logo's that I never used in all the years I had them, because the things I did want the devices for - good audio and video services - worked great in theory and in practice.

In the end, for me, I waited to get new desktop hardware with MQA because I had tried Tidal MQA Masters on my new FiiO M15 - up until that point I was ambivalent about MQA. If a device had MQA or didn't it didn't matter. After I listened to Tidal MQA Masters / regular Hifi tracks and compared the audio to Spotify and Amazon I found I enjoyed Tidal Hifi with MQA as it was at that time, and was looking forward to the promise of FiiO M15 MQA local unfolding later - which is now working on the M15 (UAPP streaming Tidal MQA) and from the start worked perfectly on the D90 MQA.

It was a choice for me between the D90 MQA from Topping or the A22 from Gustard, both were coming out soon with MQA versions - I would have been happy with either one, but the Topping came out first and with such good reviews in the D90 form - adding a newer XUS216 (XUS208 previous for the D90) I thought it worth ordering from the first batch - I'd been seeing so many devices sold out or unavailable for so long during the pandemic I didn't want to miss out by waiting for reviews.

If I had waited for reviews I might have bought the A22, given the RCA noise issues it was a real negative for me that the D90 / A90 had this as an issue. I'd only had one previous bad RCA noise problem way back in the late 70's with a PS Audio preamp, but that turned out to be a "loose wire" I found myself and reported to PS Audio - I visited them in Paso Robles at the time.

But in my early professional life fixing analog and digital circuits - tracking down design, component, and build problems - and working with sensitive test equipment in engineering and manufacturing - I have experience with getting rid of such problems. Right now I am retired without much test equipment, or I would have torn apart the A90 / D90 MQA to track down the design issues.

So to wrap it up, I'm happy I bought the D90 / A90 and was able to solve the problem with external input changes - better shielded and designed cables, and very happy it was an inexpensive fix. A little sad I wasn't able to help John fix the real problems, but I'm also sure he is aware of them and will "do better next time".

The M400 from SMSL seems like a nice product, but I haven't used it or heard it and the reviews I've seen aren't enough for me to make a purchase decision. I prefer the smaller form factors if they don't degrade the audio - I've had huge systems and tiny Denon Micro Components - I've enjoyed them all. So it's up to your personal taste if the M400 hits you as more desirable than the D90 / A90 potential.

If you are unsure of MQA or the changes needed to add MQA, I haven't found non-MQA use any less joyful than MQA use - well a little less joyful in that the streaming is less quality to me than MQA streaming - the only change I am assured is the upgrade of the XU216 from the XU208 and Topping hasn't tried to change the base programming to take advantage of the improvements in the XU216 other than the addition of MQA. There was an early bug discovered in the support of Macintosh usage fixed with a firmware update - I installed it even though I don't have a Mac right now, because you "never know".

I wanted to offer you as much info as I could from someone that has lived with the D90 MQA and A90 for about as long as anyone could - and I've spent hundreds of hours joyously discovering new music on Tidal and Amazon Music HD through a parade of new IEM's and headphones - and cables - and I wouldn't have been happier any other way. A little problematic configuration makes things "interesting". But, that's all been discovered and solutions found, so you get to reap the rewards of many people's experience now that the Topping A90 / D90 MQA have been out for a while.

I do want to offer that between the D90 MQA / A90 system and my FiiO M15, I prefer the impactful sound of the M15 often over the Topping stack. This isn't to say the M15 sounds better, as the D90 MQA and A90 give stellar audio performances, but for some music or movie experiences I do switch over to the M15. But then again, the A90 drives harder for my more power hungry headphones, so I switch back and forth depending on the material and headphone / IEM. Being able to set the D90 MQA in PRE mode helps a lot to keep me on the Topping stack more often than I would if I was stuck with DAC mode only and L Gain range on the A90.

Suffice it to say that really goes to the idea of having two equally awesome audio systems available to be able to have choices, more than one is "better" than the other, they both have their own shining talents.

The Topping A90 / D90 MQA are stable, are fun to operate, sound great, and I really enjoy using them for many hours ever day.

 

[Sukie]

The Topping A90 / D90 MQA are stable, are fun to operate, sound great, and I really enjoy using them for many hours ever day.

I know that this is bit off topic, but it's not always easy to find an MQA fan on this forum. Do you have any experience of using MQA via a Raspberry Pi? I'm not really asking for myself (well, apart from the fact that I like to acquire knowledge). I'm asking because I'm a great fan of the RPi but am aware than I can't comment on MQA related questions.

 

[hmscott]

I know that this is bit off topic, but it's not always easy to find an MQA fan on this forum. Do you have any experience of using MQA via a Raspberry Pi? I'm not really asking for myself (well, apart from the fact that I like to acquire knowledge). I'm asking because I'm a great fan of the RPi but am aware than I can't comment on MQA related questions.

I've taken this OT discussion into PM with @SJ777.

 

[Harmonie]

@hmscott

Good to know that you were aiming at the A22.
I did have it and was quite satisfied sound-wise. I ended up with the D90 finally. Reason to that is more about the company than the DAC itself.

 

[Phony846]

Has anyone paired the M400 with the Topping A90? Is this a good combo? Already have my M400 and love it...just looking for a solid amp to drive my Hifiman Arya headphones.

 

[Veri]

Has anyone paired the M400 with the Topping A90? Is this a good combo?

It is a super combo. The A90 is definitely my fav amp, highly recommended

 

[Phony846]

It is a super combo. The A90 is definitely my fav amp, highly recommended

Just got my A90 today, and it's great! Better build quality than the Monoprice THX 887. Plus now I can put my M400 in pre-mode and not overload the amp. Win win!

 

[Parzival]

MQA version results in worse than CD quality playback. I have tested but don't ask me for test results.

Hi John, is the D90mqa inferior to regular D90 in terms of performance on non-MQA tracks ?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Hi John, is the D90mqa inferior to regular D90 in terms of performance on non-MQA tracks ?

no

 

[Parzival]

no

Thanks for your prompt reply.
I just bought a D90mqa though I don’t particularly use the tidal MQA all the time but prefer software upsampling all the audio being fed to the D90mqa.

 

[Jimbob54]

Thanks for your prompt reply.
I just bought a D90mqa though I don’t particularly use the tidal MQA all the time but prefer software upsampling all the audio being fed to the D90mqa.

Why?

 

[Parzival]

Why?

On upscaling, I perceive the sound to have better tonal qualities and transients even more discernible. I upscale all hires to 705 or 768khz in integer multiples.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

The implication that the inflation of the frequency of registration of the vibration of the music nation indeed betters cochlear palpitation by some transmogrification without explanation, and despite low-pass filtration, needs research citation or instrumented interrogation and outcome adjudication for proper verification, or else it can draw reprobation and perhaps even vilification, in my humble estimation.

 

[Parzival]

The implication that the inflation of the frequency of registration of the vibration of the music nation indeed betters cochlear palpitation by some transmogrification without explanation, and despite low-pass filtration, needs research citation or instrumented interrogation and outcome adjudication for proper verification, or else it can draw reprobation and perhaps even vilification, in my humble estimation.

I took care to state that it is what I perceive.... ie it is upto my taste. Somebody asked so I responded. Don’t know how you might misconstrue that to think it is a general advice or recommendations for others to follow suit. But now that you touch upon the topic implying that upscaling is BS, I don’t want to be combative about the topic and you should definitely stick to what suits your ears. For me it is hard to describe the differences except in qualitative terms and I am no sound technician to bother about satisfying people’s academic itch with some 3rd hand theories. As a layman the only analogy I can offer is like having a powerful video chip in your high end OLED TV to upscale 720p video to 4K resolution, it doesn’t add new information but it looks damn good to the eyes.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

I took care to state that it is what I perceive.... ie it is upto my taste. Somebody asked so I responded. Don’t know how you might misconstrue that to think it is a general advice or recommendations for others to follow suit. But now that you touch upon the topic implying that upscaling is BS, I don’t want to be combative about the topic and you should definitely stick to what suits your ears. For me it is hard to describe the differences except in qualitative terms and I am no sound technician to bother about satisfying people’s academic itch with some 3rd hand theories. As a layman the only analogy I can offer is like having a powerful video chip in your high end OLED TV to upscale 720p video to 4K resolution, it doesn’t add new information but it looks damn good to the eyes.

Thanks for the reasonable response about your perception of the upscaled music. I can follow your analogy about upscaling 720p to 4K, though in the case of audio it depends on the effective analog signal after the reconstruction/low-pass filter in the two cases without and with upscaling. I do not want to argue about it either, I was just referring to the topic of audibility of differences between high-resolution audio and Redbook audio being a much-debated one. When I posted, I was bored, and trying to be droll. Please disregard that post.

 

[Parzival]

Thanks for the reasonable response about your perception of the upscaled music. I can follow your analogy about upscaling 720p to 4K, though in the case of audio it depends on the effective analog signal after the reconstruction/low-pass filter in the two cases without and with upscaling. I do not want to argue about it either, I was just referring to the topic of audibility of differences between high-resolution audio and Redbook audio being a much-debated one. When I posted, I was bored, and trying to be droll. Please disregard that post.

Cheers. I understand. Though from what I learnt from someone, the aliasing artifacts due to reconstruction filters shift to inaudible range if the signal is properly upscaled. This is one of the benefits of pre-DAC upscaling too. Getting back to the topic of D90mqa, I really love it. I use it with my benchmark HPA4 amp (DAC3 from benchmark was out of my budget . My headphones are perfectly matched to extract every last detail. (Focal Utopia and Abyss Diana Phi). So in my setup, headphones are more than a match to my signal chain and small things like upscaled transients reveal themselves very nicely. D90mqa represents a phenomenal value, great product from Topping.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Cheers. I understand. Though from what I learnt from someone, the aliasing artifacts due to reconstruction filters shift to inaudible range if the signal is properly upscaled. This is one of the benefits of pre-DAC upscaling too. Getting back to the topic of D90mqa, I really love it. I use it with my benchmark HPA4 amp (DAC3 from benchmark was out of my budget . My headphones are perfectly matched to extract every last detail. (Focal Utopia and Abyss Diana Phi). So in my setup, headphones are more than a match to my signal chain and small things like upscaled transients reveal themselves very nicely. D90mqa represents a phenomenal value, great product from Topping.

I am a layman too, when it comes to audio science. I have not yet purchased or streamed any audio higher-res than Redbook, nor have I upscaled any flac that I have ripped. I have not read much about the aliasing artifacts, but I do recall reading that the presence of ultrasonics in the analog signal can potentially alias [Edit: I am using 'alias' loosely to mean generate distortion, via some nonlinear mechanism] into the audible range in the downstream equipment including the transducer. The other factor is that the upscaling is an interpolation, which is a partial reconstruction in the digital domain. It certainly makes the task of the reconstruction filter of the DAC easier, but it raises the question of whether the net reconstruction of the combination of upscaling followed by the easier reconstruction to analog is any different or better or worse (and in what sense? deviation or pleasant smoothing?) than the reconstruction to analog of the signal without upscaling, after your choice of low-pass filter. To disentangle that, one has also to deal with possible expectation bias in "sighted" listening. A thorny topic beyond my ken, and also off-topic for this thread. Congratulations on your top-of-the-line equipment that is indeed very resolving, and welcome to ASR! I learn new things about audio in almost every thread I read, from so many experts who post on here.

 

[Veri]

Cheers. I understand. Though from what I learnt from someone, the aliasing artifacts due to reconstruction filters shift to inaudible range if the signal is properly upscaled. This is one of the benefits of pre-DAC upscaling too. Getting back to the topic of D90mqa, I really love it. I use it with my benchmark HPA4 amp (DAC3 from benchmark was out of my budget . My headphones are perfectly matched to extract every last detail. (Focal Utopia and Abyss Diana Phi). So in my setup, headphones are more than a match to my signal chain and small things like upscaled transients reveal themselves very nicely.

Honestly I'd have a hard time believing the default oversampling would have any audible difference to upscaling in software. Upscaled transients? No idea what those would sound like....

 

[Parzival]

Honestly I'd have a hard time believing the default oversampling would have any audible difference to upscaling in software. Upscaled transients? No idea what those would sound like....

In my particular use case and signal chain, pre-dac software upscaling does make a perceivable difference which can be immediately A/B tested by switching on and off the upscaling algorithm. The subtle difference is noticeable only on headphones and not speakers, that maybe because of the room’s impulse response, I am not sure. People may or may not find the smidgen of improvement worth the extra layer of digital processing, really is upto personal taste and the technical capability of the IEM/headphones in use.

 

[Veri]

In my particular use case and signal chain, pre-dac software upscaling does make a perceivable difference which can be immediately A/B tested by switching on and off the upscaling algorithm.

Have you considered you are sensitive to phase change? What VS what were you AB'ing, exactly