Cross at 60 vs Cross at 100

[jbattman1016]

I treat integration and room effects separately. Having sealed speakers or speakers where ports can be plugged getting that ≈12 dB/octave slope and crossing at 80-100 Hz with the standard 12/24 filter is the start. Using a separate DSP is another solution for integration. Then use parametric EQ to dampen room modes.

@Thomas_A Don't forget to adjust the distances after you calibrate. The Denon's have a bug where they incorrectly used some wrong value for the speed of sound.

 

[Thomas_A]

@Thomas_A Don't forget to adjust the distances after you calibrate. The Denon's have a bug where they incorrectly used some wrong value for the speed of sound.

Is that reflected in actual distance that Audyssey measure to the mains and subs?

 

[jbattman1016]

yeah, you need to adjust the value by 1.8 or something... in the app (or on the device) after you calibrate. Let me get you the value, one moment.

 

[jbattman1016]

it multiply by 0.875

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/d-m-distance-bug.3278726/#post-62658131

 

[Thomas_A]

it multiply by 0.875

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/d-m-distance-bug.3278726/#post-62658131

I looked in my app and it measured 3.16 and 3.18 m to L/R and 3.25 m to sub(s). Subwoofers are two and act as speaker stands so it seems reasonable. Not sure if it matters for integration even if it would be 0.875 factor.

 

[Thomas_A]

I just measured it physically to ≈3.1-3.2 m to LP.

 

[jbattman1016]

My understanding is the bug has been there for some time. Just letting you know if you want to adjust or not that's fine I made the change and didn't notice anything, so eh.

 

[Chromatischism]

My understanding is the bug has been there for some time. Just letting you know if you want to adjust or not that's fine I made the change and didn't notice anything, so eh.

It is technically correct after doing it but it may not be audible.

 

[Acerun]

Sorry about delay. I'm really sick.

About 90hrz.
60hrz is to low for really high output levels in my space but it would be fine for most times.
Still I'd much rather have the subs handling the bulk of the 50-90hrz range vs a pair of 6.5s.
They are much more suited to delivering those frequencies.
I've used with a few different subs.
8's 10's 15's of various design.
Bear in mind I am mainly a 2 channel listener so this is a music system. No movie, LFE, rather miniDSP and ability to very easily make adjustments and blend subs and mains.

Fwiiw I don't think there is any benefit to sealing the M126be. Unless there is midrange leaking from the port. (Which I've never heard is an issue with this model) The drivers are not meant to be sealed in a box that 'big'(it would be about 1/3 that size if designed as such) you are likely losing powerhandling & output & gaining nothing back.

Changing the crossover is not the only variable. Each time you adjust you may have to tweak in relationship to other variables. Also there are room modes, SBIR, Subwoofer(s) location, location of mains to walls ECT.

I also use a different target for the bass region room responce vs the flat slope you posted.

I also apply PEQ/room adjustments above about 150hrz to each L & R channel independently. Below that I generally apply globally.


Howdy, I don't agree.
I don't find this is the same as matching something like a tweeter and midrange.
Blending the sub is not delicate, it is almost a bit of brute force crude endevor.
The wavelengths are enormous and nearly 100% omni(unless crossing high to say make a diy 3way) and blend together very easily. They do not need to matched like the ideal on paper especially as they absolutely to do not behave that way in rooms.
Then the many, many different room effects are massive and much room correction is used below 150hrz relative to other regions.
I've never had a problem getting superb blending with a little time involved to try a few different things. Though with miniDSP that is easier vs most AVRs still I could certainly get a good blend in the bass and especially if any PEQ or RC is going to be used.
Just measure with every adjustment and take some time.

I'm very sorry to hear about your sickness. Thank you for the thoughtful response. My intuition is to not seal the speakers. I am enamored by the way the purifi amplifier helps them shine. All the best to you

 

[Acerun]

I have a few questions, like why you are not using the built-in aps of the 8500H, but some tips for getting better sound.
Modify the sound curve via the JSON file from the multi-EQ app, I'm using the Toole+bass curve from AVSForum.
Disable the following surround parameters from the denon (Cinema QE and Loudness).

Changing the audyssey adjustment frequency just means the frequencies above that are going to remain as is and not touched by the target curve. I have this set to 500Hz as well.

I set my crossover to 60Hz for my system and this sounds good, but did run it at 90Hz for a while. Still testing.

Some details here on how to manually edit the curve: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/an...r-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.3006886/
The last couple of pages show how to edit the curve in a browser/JSON editor so you don't need to use the software.

The internal amps on x8500h aren't great. You can see that in the measurements in Amir's review. By turning all of the amp channels to none then you get the maximum 104 SINAD, the AVR runs cooler, and trust me with Purifi external amplifiers it sounds a lot better.

The distance issue is cleared up if you're using the $200 Multieq-x app, it does this correctly by default.

 

[Acerun]

So I went back to a 100hz crossover with a 1.5db low shelf and that both added the needed additional lower end energy as well as took some of the workload off the main speakers. It sounds right, tight bass, open and not boomy.

 

[Acerun]

I'm not sure I understand most of these measurements. There are massive differences even very low in frequency between them. In this graph for instance they're not at all at the same level say at 30hz. Why?

View attachment 348061

Can we get a graph with just the difference between 60, 80 and 100 for instance, in the same graph, taken at the same time, and only showing 20-200hz on the X-axis? (no point in seeing the full frequency range). And no smoothing.

Not sure, I took all those measurements at the same time in a row without touching the microphone. I'm using Adyssey multieq-x so it could be doing something.

Edit: Thinking about this, I adjusted the subwoofers to cross at each measurement with the mains FR. So I made adjustments so that the mains and the subwoofer were crossed exactly at 60, 80, 100, and 180. I then took the full spectrum measurement for that crossover.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Edit: Thinking about this, I adjusted the subwoofers to cross at each measurement with the mains FR. So I made adjustments so that the mains and the subwoofer were crossed exactly at 60, 80, 100, and 180. I then took the full spectrum measurement for that crossover.

Doesn't the Denon handle crossover filters for both subs and speakers? Why do you have to adjust the subwoofers?

 

[jbattman1016]

The internal amps on x8500h aren't great. You can see that in the measurements in Amir's review. By turning all of the amp channels to none then you get the maximum 104 SINAD, the AVR runs cooler, and trust me with Purifi external amplifiers it sounds a lot better.

I suppose this would be when driving at higher levels, I just scratch above -49db on the volume before it's too loud for my small room.

The distance issue is cleared up if you're using the $200 Multieq-x app, it does this correctly by default.

I wasn't going to spend another $200 to for some basic math. Also, denon could push a firmware update with this fix, so nope.

 

[Acerun]

My understanding is the bug has been there for some time. Just letting you know if you want to adjust or not that's fine I made the change and didn't notice anything, so

I suppose this would be when driving at higher levels, I just scratch above -49db on the volume before it's too loud for my small room.


I wasn't going to spend another $200 to for some basic math. Also, denon could push a firmware update with this fix, so nope.

MultiEQ-X does a lot more and does it accurately. The $20 app was built by a third party, not Audessey and does not do what the app says it is doing. There is a very good YouTube video on this. I will try to find it.

 

[Acerun]

Doesn't the Denon handle crossover filters for both subs and speakers? Why do you have to adjust the subwoofers?

Because I want to see the actual in room results in REW.

 

[Chromatischism]

I wasn't going to spend another $200 to for some basic math. Also, denon could push a firmware update with this fix, so nope

They've said they can't or won't fix it with firmware, so don't count on it.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Because I want to see the actual in room results in REW.

I don't get it. Just connect your laptop to an analog input on the Denon, and you will be able to do that?

 

[Acerun]

I suppose this would be when driving at higher levels, I just scratch above -49db on the volume before it's too loud for my small room.


I wasn't going to spend another $200 to for some basic math. Also, denon could push a firmware update with this fix, so nope.

I'd recommend watching the whole thing, it's very informative. If you want to jump closer to the discussion as to why the $20 third party app doesn't work properly, maybe start watching at 15 mins or so. Multieq-x lets you disable auto-leveling which is critical. It also lets you enable headroom expansion. I used the app and now I use Multieq-x and it's made a huge difference.

 

[Acerun]

I don't get it. Just connect your laptop to an analog input on the Denon, and you will be able to do that?

When I say adjust the subs, I mean that I take a sub measurement, a Left main measurement, a Right main measurement in REW and I see if the subwoofer line is crossing the mains FR at the right crossover target. I'm using MultiEQ-X to tell the AVR what crossover I want, yes. If the sub measurement line is either higher or lower than the target crossover, 100hz for example, I just make small volume adjustments on each of the subs and re-measure until the subs are crossing the LR at the crossover target.

I'm green at all this so let's keep that in mind.