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Creating bass weight and impact?

The lower bass goes, 1) the less audible it is, 2) the less controllable it is. You end up with the venue interfering in all kinds of ways, peaks and dead spots, structure rattles etc. It also (as others have already said) takes a ton of power and driving area. Since the human ear will interpolate from the harmonics anyway, it is generally not worth the hassle. The Front Of House sound team will aggressively EQ that stuff out whenever they can, I would imagine especially in a historical venue with lots of hanging fiddly bits.

'Kick bins' to give that visceral impact to the kick drum tend to be tuned around 100hz. For regular bands, content tends to drop off pretty quickly somewhere around there. There are other threads here (or just go to Talkbass) talking about bass guitar fundamentals and why it's both not worth the hassle and a bad idea from the FOH perspective to try to reproduce low fundamentals when the harmonics are what matter.

If you listen to 'Berlin techno' what I remember from that is that the kick is fairly high in frequency as well. Some modern genres they do get deeper into the sub-bass but I'm not sure how / how much of that is replicated live, or attempted.

If you want to get that impact in your house,
- EQ the bass hot, maybe 12dB hot if your system can take it
- Crank it, 110dB with 12dB hot bass means you're in the 120s
- Have a bunch of people in your house sympathetically moving with the music. For Floyd this may require drugs
- Pay to repair your belongings, building damage, noise violations
 
The way to avoid this is to reduce room modes. In my experience dsp room eq works miracles here.
Yes, I have this in hand. My system is 'tight' and well articulated. I'm just keen to understand how the same effect is ramped up to 11 at live events (and if I can improve my system further)
 
Dsp room eq only works up to some extent, so you will always continue to have some peaks and dips. Conversely, live events are in large halls or even outdoors, so room modes are not an issue. Mind you, my experience is limited to classical symphony halls. There is also some research that suggests that the maximum level that you can comfortably listen to is lower, the smaller the room.
 
If you are seeking a bit more bass weight and impact in the home, perhaps check out the offerings from JTR and RTJ speakers. Both lines built by the same guy, Jeff. Here is a video of a recent meet up to listen to some of his offerings.

 
Yeah, I've always noted (especially having played in a large funk band for many years) how PA systems in clubs hit like a sledgehammer, while home systems, even cranked pretty loud, seem to be hitting with pillows. They sound like toys compared to the live music.

That's the case even for just playing bass guitar through a bass amp (e.g. your Fender of choice) vs recorded and played back through the typical stereo system. Practising bass through the cabinet, it just has a solidity and force it doesn't usually have through stereo systems.

(One of the few domestic hi-fi speaker systems I heard that started to remind me of that solidity and force were the Waveform Mach 17 speakers, and even to a degree, the smaller Mach Solo speakers. The designer was big on trying to get that sense of power).
 
Yeah, I've always noted (especially having played in a large funk band for many years) how PA systems in clubs hit like a sledgehammer, while home systems, even cranked pretty loud, seem to be hitting with pillows. They sound like toys compared to the live music.

That's the case even for just playing bass guitar through a bass amp (e.g. your Fender of choice) vs recorded and played back through the typical stereo system. Practising bass through the cabinet, it just has a solidity and force it doesn't usually have through stereo systems.

(One of the few domestic hi-fi speaker systems I heard that started to remind me of that solidity and force were the Waveform Mach 17 speakers, and even to a degree, the smaller Mach Solo speakers. The designer was big on trying to get that sense of power).
Yes exactly.

I'm also trying to understand how you would/could measure this parameter - assuming we are clear exactly what it is!
 
My question then is what creates the hard (in a good way) visceral bass sound that you hear at concerts? Can it be created at home?
Yes.

More specific, it depends. What you want to achieve. A nice, subtle tactile smack!! is possible to get, without spl getting too loud to bear. This is what differentiates a good speaker system from the typical. The sense of a hard, tactile initial attack on drums. It will still be present at lower volumes, though you will not get this violent physical feel.

Some if it is the speaker system, some can be calibration, some room acoustics and placement of speakers and listener.
 
Maybe try to EQ towards a bass heavy target that is also used in live sound like this one:

LL
 
There's a good test that says this amongst others:

View attachment 325673


I think this is the answer to the original question. And the pro arrays can deliver vastly more SPL than most home speakers.
 
I think this is the answer to the original question. And the pro arrays can deliver vastly more SPL than most home speakers.
But is it?

Are you saying the 'hardness' is just increasing the bass and high SPL?

. . maybe also lifting at 80Hz (where chest rresonance lies)?
 
But is it?

Are you saying the 'hardness' is just increasing the bass and high SPL?

. . maybe also lifting at 80Hz (where chest rresonance lies)?
Probably. I doubt it's in the deep bass, since as has been noted, most pro installations roll off down there.
 
Hmm, tomorrow (when my neighbours are out) I'll ramp up 80Hz and open the throttle and see what happens. My 8361's will go scary loud if pushed
 
Hmm, tomorrow (when my neighbours are out) I'll ramp up 80Hz and open the throttle and see what happens. My 8361's will go scary loud if pushed
As long as I have tested this it's even higher,at 100-120Hz or so,that's where kick drums seems to have the greater energy.
Just put a song with a drums playing solo and observe this in an RTA.The amount of energy at 100-150Hz is huge.
 
Hmm, tomorrow (when my neighbours are out) I'll ramp up 80Hz and open the throttle and see what happens. My 8361's will go scary loud if pushed
I bet it's somewhere in the upper bass, 80 - 100Hz. And I recall from somewhere that the higher harmonics up to a kHz or two matter. Your Genelecs should easily do high SPL on those too.
 
It's all SPL.
The only way to reproduce this at home, without massacring your ears is to boost the low frequencies significantly and hope your subwoofers can handle the load.
 
I bet it's somewhere in the upper bass, 80 - 100Hz. And I recall from somewhere that the higher harmonics up to a kHz or two matter. Your Genelecs should easily do high SPL on those too.
Yes, easy to do.

It will be interesting to see where the boost/SPL sweet spot lies. I don't want crazy loud all the time
 
My understanding is it is primarily spl oriented, and more in the mid bass than low bass. I wouldn't expect relatively small speakers like a pair of 8361s to compete with a concert hall's setup. Maybe adding some pro type subs (i.e. those that don't concentrate on home theater type lower bass) might help. Even though I've added significant speakers/subs to my room, it just has never compared to what I can experience at a concert (assuming electrically amplified type). I've also assumed recordings also downplay this range of content....
 
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