Creating bass weight and impact?

[Jimshoe]

My understanding is it is primarily spl oriented, and more in the mid bass than low bass. I wouldn't expect relatively small speakers like a pair of 8361s to compete with a concert hall's setup. Maybe adding some pro type subs (i.e. those that don't concentrate on home theater type lower bass) might help. Even though I've added significant speakers/subs to my room, it just has never compared to what I can experience at a concert (assuming electrically amplified type). I've also assumed recordings also downplay this range of content....

Yes, ultimately I'm not seriously trying to reproduce concert sound, but it's something I always notice with live music that I'd like to understand better.

 

[MoreWatts]

Subwoofers are commonly used in concert venues and discotheques. If linear arrays are hung, you can bet subwoofers are somewhere, possibly out of sight. Just like in a home system, it is the power from the subwoofer that adds this 'visceral slam.' I get really nice bass from Revel F208s, to where I can feel a wave of wind hit me after a good bass punch. But it takes a subwoofer, with its own >500 watt amp, to make the system truly 'slam.'

Are you sure the venues discussed do not use subwoofers? They may be hidden.

 

[NTK]

Copied from this post by Dr Toole at AVSForum:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/how-to-choose-a-loudspeaker-what-the-science-shows.3038828/page-59#post-57537424

Your comments are very much on target, and in line with things I might have said. "Scale" is a subjectivist term with no definition.​

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Some studies many years ago associated bass with perceived "size". I think it is definitely a factor, but with provisos. In terms of sound quality ratings, bass extension - the lowest useful frequency - is a correlate. But in all cases the room resonances are in the propagation path between the speaker(s) and listener. These can cause huge variations in perceived bass because some frequencies are emphasized and others attenuated. The specific frequencies and the amount of energy communicated are determined by room size and shape, loudspeaker location, listener location, and even the configuration of bass drivers in the enclosure and whether it is a closed box or reflex design. In "real life" it is almost impossible to do meaningful comparisons, although opinions are arrived at with great regularity.​

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An elevated bass level is a common attribute of larger loudspeakers, and that is good. However the resulting perceptions are very likely different depending on the frequencies of the dominant room modes involved in the transfer of energy. Resonant peaks in the 80-100 Hz range generate "punchy" bass, with those at lower frequencies add "body" and can generate tactile impressions. Identifying those modes would be a good place to look for evidence of "scale" and controlling them a good way to potentially manipulate it.​

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I will add that I have observed great perceptual benefits when room modes are attenuated by multiple sub strategies. It no longer sounds like listening in a small room when the modes are attenuated or eliminated. The bass simply fills the room, as it does in large performance venues. To me, that is a persuasive factor in achieving "scale". The equivalent phenomenon at higher frequencies is that speakers with no audible resonances can "disappear", not drawing attention to themselves. That is another contributor to "scale".​

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, ultimately I'm not seriously trying to reproduce concert sound, but it's something I always notice with live music that I'd like to understand better.

Oh, me too.....but after a while I just came to the conclusion that I wasn't going to get there without going to the show (which I need earplugs at these days, too). Perhaps with speakers and amplification more resembling those used in such venues you can achieve this at home (thinking of some of the JBL offerings in this regard).....but I certainly would only use such spl to demo/amuse myself, generally wouldn't use it.

 

[Jimshoe]

Subwoofers are commonly used in concert venues and discotheques. If linear arrays are hung, you can bet subwoofers are somewhere, possibly out of sight. Just like in a home system, it is the power from the subwoofer that adds this 'visceral slam.' I get really nice bass from Revel F208s, to where I can feel a wave of wind hit me after a good bass punch. But it takes a subwoofer, with its own >500 watt amp, to make the system truly 'slam.'

Are you sure the venues discussed do not use subwoofers? They may be hidden.

I think I said earlier there was a line of subwoofers in front of the stage

 

[fpitas]

I might be wrong, but as I recall, pro subwoofers don't go subterranean like HT subs.

 

[Jimshoe]

I might be wrong, but as I recall, pro subwoofers don't go subterranean like HT subs.

The bass was certainly not subterreanan - rolled off quite quickly in fact.

 

[Sokel]

Subwoofers are commonly used in concert venues and discotheques. If linear arrays are hung, you can bet subwoofers are somewhere, possibly out of sight. Just like in a home system, it is the power from the subwoofer that adds this 'visceral slam.' I get really nice bass from Revel F208s, to where I can feel a wave of wind hit me after a good bass punch. But it takes a subwoofer, with its own >500 watt amp, to make the system truly 'slam.'

Are you sure the venues discussed do not use subwoofers? They may be hidden.

They do have subs,that's a given.
But they are often hi passed as high as 60Hz,even for EDM music.
40Hz is about the standard.

 

[DJNX]

My understanding is it is primarily spl oriented, and more in the mid bass than low bass. I wouldn't expect relatively small speakers like a pair of 8361s to compete with a concert hall's setup. Maybe adding some pro type subs (i.e. those that don't concentrate on home theater type lower bass) might help. Even though I've added significant speakers/subs to my room, it just has never compared to what I can experience at a concert (assuming electrically amplified type). I've also assumed recordings also downplay this range of content....

Even small, low budget venues use 18" subwoofers. There is no way for home audio to really compete in SPL.
And you are right, rather than boost 80Hz (that would quickly consume any headroom), it's better to just use the bass tone control.

 

[MoreWatts]

This thread confuses me. All systems require subwoofers. Are you trying to create bass slam without an amplified sub? Your probability of success is low, even with the venerable 8361. A philharmonic concert hall is not an EDM disco. The subs can be crossed much higher, if needed.

 

[Sokel]

This thread confuses me. All systems require subwoofers. Are you trying to create bass slam without an amplified sub? Your probability of success is low, even with the venerable 8361. A philharmonic concert hall is not an EDM disco. The subs can be crossed much higher, if needed.

Talking about classical,baritones reach 70Hz (with authority),would you like to listen to them through a sub?
Subs are for lower when doing classical,it would be easy if they didn't.

 

[Jimshoe]

Sorry, it has drifted a bit!

What I am trying to do is understand how the hard impactful bass of live events is created. Is it EQ'ing, just pure SPL or something else? I've never heard any domestic system really able to do it.

I guess my hope would be by understanding what's happening I would be able to ensure I got as closeto it as possible with myt room/system.

 

[Chrispy]

Even small, low budget venues use 18" subwoofers. There is no way for home audio to really compete in SPL.
And you are right, rather than boost 80Hz (that would quickly consume any overhead), it's better to just use the bass tone control.

What's the difference between using a boost at 80hz vs bass tone control?

 

[MoreWatts]

I've never heard any domestic system really able to do it.

Then you've never heard a system with correctly integrated subwoofers.

 

[digitalfrost]

Sorry, it has drifted a bit!

What I am trying to do is understand how the hard impactful bass of live events is created. Is it EQ'ing, just pure SPL or something else? I've never heard any domestic system really able to do it.

I guess my hope would be by understanding what's happening I would be able to ensure I got as closeto it as possible with myt room/system.

I'll throw out a theory. Maybe it has to do with membrane area and the coupling to the room. Anyone who has heard horns knows they make a very nice tacticle bass, and I believe this could be because the horn mouth improves the coupling of the speaker to the room. I know that wind turbines have a maximum efficiency, at a certain point air will simply move around them.

So maybe we just need a lot of membrane area regardless of maximum SPL requirements.

 

[Jimshoe]

Then you've never heard a system with correctly integrated subwoofers.

Hmmm, I don't think it's that simple.

I think Mattt (post 26) hit the nail on the head. It's possible also to do with how live music vs recorded is mixed - in that the engineer can really boost certain frequencies to create an audience pleasing 'impact' that would be too much on a recording

 

[DJNX]

What's the difference between using a boost at 80hz vs bass tone control?

Tone controls are usually "shelves": a custom EQ curve that affects the lower or higher bands.

EQ Shelving : High Shelf And Low Shelf Filters Explained

High Shelf & Low Shelf Explained EQ shelves are filters like the high and low pass filters There are 2 types of shelves - the high shelf and low shelf High shelf can be applied to the trembly high

rebootrecording.com

Depending on the manufacturer, the curves can be very smooth and wide, or more abrupt.

A precise boost at 80Hz is surely going to be a narrow "bell" that will eat up all the wattage of the subwoofer easily.
Not worth it, since it's not granted all songs will have the thump in that frequency range.

 

[Sokel]

I'll throw out a theory. Maybe it has to do with membrane area and the coupling to the room. Anyone who has heard horns knows they make a very nice tacticle bass, and I believe this could be because the horn mouth improves the coupling of the speaker to the room. I know that wind turbines have a maximum efficiency, at a certain point air will simply move around them.

So maybe we just need a lot of membrane area regardless of maximum SPL requirements.

Remember that old big 8-10" midwoofered big,broad speakers?
They did exactly that.

It's size for me.
My current setup is twice as big than my previous,at the same SPL the feeling is completely different.Next one will be bass arrays floor to bottom or 2+ meter cabinets.
That's the places I have found to be enough (but still not lifelike)

 

[Svend P]

This works for me for movies. Two times I tried with 15" PA drivers to make midbass slam, but I think I never played them loud enough, so I gave up. But these 18" TC Sounds really move the sofa, wich is close enough for me.

 

[fpitas]

My 4 x 6.5" midbass drivers are feeling inadequate. Although in my room at least I do get good slam.