Could use some 101 advice

[Wishplay]

Hello,

First of all I‘d like to say I’m super impressed with the wealth of exact information and knowledge available here. I had a homestudio once but started traveling about five years ago and haven’t done anything with recording music since. It is now that I’ve temporarily settled in a place where I feel I want to record and mix some songs I’ve written along the way. I’m making do with an iPad Air 3 (Cubasis) a Rode NT USB and a Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 32 Ohm and want to record acoustic guitar (using the mic) and piano (an old Kawai ES110).

Last thing missing are monitors. I thought about getting the Presonus Eris E3.5 or Edifier MR4 as they are the cheapest options with lots of positive reviews but then I found this website and read they’re actually next to horrible and now I feel the only option for me are JBL’s LSR305 or 305P MKII.

I have a live-in job at a hotel in the Uk and live in a caravan on site. it’s got nice enough sofa‘s and rugs but obviously it’s untreated.

Now the question I have is, after having read all the reviews, information and seeing all the highly technical data if it’s actually worth it to buy these monitors for mixing and if so, if I could make do with a 3.5mm to 1/4 Y-split cable or need an Audio Interface. I really want to spent as little as possible plus I will most likely sell the piano and monitors once I leave here in a few months time and my recordings and mixes don’t have to be state-of-the art but good enough.

i suppose after having found this website and seeing the technical angle and exact measurements here I suddenly feel intimidated and reduced to consumer level insight. I’ve always been a member of KVR Audio for eg. but compared to this website the information there is almost anecdotal rather than factual. I suppose the exactness of data and compelling arguments about EQing and measurements here makes me question whether I shouldn’t just mix on my headphones as the investment in monitors and/or AI would be futile when not treating the room or EQ them.

I‘m a musician first and and a hobbyist soundguy last and I realise now even more than before it’s such a diffferent craft and artform. Maybe I was just kidding and entertaining myself back when I still had a ‘proper’ homestudio -which isn’a bad thing per sé- but at this point, given the temporary nature of my ‘home’ I don’t want to fool myself. I hope this makes sense.

So to reiterate, from a professional/knowledgeable perspective would it be a waste to invest in monitors knowing I won’t treat the room, am limited in how I can position them, can’t do any measurements or EQing (I am hoping the Image Control Waveguide will be helpful here) and if not, how much soundquality would I sacrifice by using a simple Audio Out cable rather than a cheap AI? I‘ve never used iOS before to produce so I also have no idea how much the iPad’s DAC quality is over an AI.

PS. Sorry for the 101 question but I’ve been out of the game for too long and I‘d really appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

 

[Hexspa]

Hello,

First of all I‘d like to say I’m super impressed with the wealth of exact information and knowledge available here. I had a homestudio once but started traveling about five years ago and haven’t done anything with recording music since. It is now that I’ve temporarily settled in a place where I feel I want to record and mix some songs I’ve written along the way. I’m making do with an iPad Air 3 (Cubasis) a Rode NT USB and a Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 32 Ohm and want to record acoustic guitar (using the mic) and piano (an old Kawai ES110).

Last thing missing are monitors. I thought about getting the Presonus Eris E3.5 or Edifier MR4 as they are the cheapest options with lots of positive reviews but then I found this website and read they’re actually next to horrible and now I feel the only option for me are JBL’s LSR305 or 305P MKII.

I have a live-in job at a hotel in the Uk and live in a caravan on site. it’s got nice enough sofa‘s and rugs but obviously it’s untreated.

Now the question I have is, after having read all the reviews, information and seeing all the highly technical data if it’s actually worth it to buy these monitors for mixing and if so, if I could make do with a 3.5mm to 1/4 Y-split cable or need an Audio Interface. I really want to spent as little as possible plus I will most likely sell the piano and monitors once I leave here in a few months time and my recordings and mixes don’t have to be state-of-the art but good enough.

i suppose after having found this website and seeing the technical angle and exact measurements here I suddenly feel intimidated and reduced to consumer level insight. I’ve always been a member of KVR Audio for eg. but compared to this website the information there is almost anecdotal rather than factual. I suppose the exactness of data and compelling arguments about EQing and measurements here makes me question whether I shouldn’t just mix on my headphones as the investment in monitors and/or AI would be futile when not treating the room or EQ them.

I‘m a musician first and and a hobbyist soundguy last and I realise now even more than before it’s such a diffferent craft and artform. Maybe I was just kidding and entertaining myself back when I still had a ‘proper’ homestudio -which isn’a bad thing per sé- but at this point, given the temporary nature of my ‘home’ I don’t want to fool myself. I hope this makes sense.

So to reiterate, from a professional/knowledgeable perspective would it be a waste to invest in monitors knowing I won’t treat the room, am limited in how I can position them, can’t do any measurements or EQing (I am hoping the Image Control Waveguide will be helpful here) and if not, how much soundquality would I sacrifice by using a simple Audio Out cable rather than a cheap AI? I‘ve never used iOS before to produce so I also have no idea how much the iPad’s DAC quality is over an AI.

PS. Sorry for the 101 question but I’ve been out of the game for too long and I‘d really appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

Props for reaching out. All I can say is you get out what you put in but that doesn't necessarily apply to gear. You can get cheap gear and get an excellent result if your skills are up to the task. If you have bad gear and no skills then you are a beginner and all you can do is start practicing and studying.

I don't know about splitter cables other than they can split but not combine (I think that's right). If you want to record an acoustic guitar, you need a mic. Actually, you could record it with your headphones but it might not sound that good. the Kawai might have a line or midi out you can use. The iPad's DAC is probably fine, especially given your situation. I've taken converter tests and failed them and I otherwise have decent hearing and aural skills.

What I think is you are best off recording what you can and trying to get the best result with what you have. You don't necessarily need monitors, some people mix in headphones, but you will benefit from having a secondary reference that shows what your bass is doing.

Anyway, just go step by step. Don't let the info overwhelm you. I do music full time (about 4 hours of focused work per day) and have been doing so for many years and I still don't know everything. Bottom line: don't worry about your gear, just work on it every day and eventually you'll figure out a way forward.

Hope that helps.

 

[DonH56]

Using a small pair of active monitors with an adapter (not really a splitter; it converts the stereo 3.5 mm TSR/TSSR output to individual connections for each speaker) to convert the stereo output from the 3.5 mm jack to a a pair of powered monitors (e.g. JBL LSR305) should work fine. As @Hexspa said you may want to use headphones for monitoring when recording to avoid feedback and such, but a pair of powered monitors makes mixing and mastering easier and more fun IME (I get tired of headphones). Typically the monitors are near field, on the mixing desk in front of you, so treatment can wait for now. Depending on the room you may want to hang a heavy blanket or something behind you. You will be missing the lowest bass but for starters that seems a good way to go.

The Rode should be fine for starting out. You can head down the mic rabbit hole later. Preferably after you win the lottery.

There are a number of good books on home recording so that's something you might want to research.

HTH - Don

 

[Ellebob]

How important is size? I would look at Kali and JBL but if you need smaller the iLoud micro.

 

[Wishplay]

Thank you all for the replies. Truly appreciated. Bottom line for me is that money is tight and I indeed have a lot to learn about mixing (which I’m very much looking forward to in this moment). When I built my homestudio when still having a home in Amsterdam I had a reasonable setup with Tannoy 502s, Steinberg UR44, AT2020, Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250 and at that stage I learned how to work with a DAW, how to record properly (built a very nice booth) and understanding the framework of a studio with MIDI and audio connections, routing, mapping, concepts etc. To be honest I think at that point I drowned in buying too much fun gear (BCR/BCF 2000, VRM Box, Nanopad et.) and loved figuring out connecting and mapping these things but in the process I forgot how to make music. And then I started traveling with a backpack…

Now I want to keep it small and really focus on mixing within a budget. Singer-songwriter stuff and light arrangements. I do ‘hate’ headphones as well if worn too long and as such I feel it would be so much more fun and hopefully also educational by also mixing on monitors. Given the fact I’m essentially a ’sound’ newbie I feel lost between the choice of a pair of Donner 4” monitors for £29, some midrange priced (for me) Presonus Eris 3.5 or Alexis M1 MKii for £100 or the JBL 305 or LSR305 for about £175.

Having taken in as much information as I can including the findings on this site I feel the only real entry point for starter monitors are the JBL‘s (all prices on Ebay for used ones btw). This however is purely based on processing the information I’ve read and taken in. I don’t have a factual frame of reference.

As such I suppose I wonder how much “damage” I will do to my learning curve by starting out with properly listening and mixing using the dirtcheap Donners. Or the proportional benefit I get from buying the 6 times more expensive JBL’s. I know it’s only a 100 bucks but to me it counts In this moment.

So maybe as a last follow-up question could someone in some way quantify the ”damage/benefit” ratio of the forementioned choices? More in terms of learning maybe than in the actual end result.

 

[Zensō]

Welcome to the forum!

My recommendation would be to mix on your existing headphones. Conventional wisdom says you can’t mix and master on headphones, but that is changing with multiple Grammy winning engineers doing their work solely on headphones today. If you decide to go the headphone route, you might consider Sonarworks for headphones, which will correct the deficiencies in the frequency response of your headphones, and possibly CanOpener Studio, which is a crossfeed plugin that makes the stereo field in your headphones closer to that of loudspeakers.

SoundID Reference - Pricing

Headphone and speaker calibration software from €99. Secure payments, a money-back guarantee, and fast delivery. Try out 21-day, risk-free.

www.sonarworks.com

CanOpener Studio, by Goodhertz

Conjure speakers from your headphones.

goodhertz.com

 

[Matias]

Welcome to ASR.

+1 for mixing with headphones. Get them properly equalized too. Even a good IEM would do wonders (like Truthear Zero Red - 55 usd).

Also find an album which you would really like your songs to sound like (ideally), and use it as a reference to compare your mixes back and forth. It will work as a goal for you to adjust the tonal balance, dynamics and overall level of your songs.

 

[staticV3]

@Wishplay
One thing that I would strongly recommend you buy no matter what studio monitor you decide on is a measurement microphone.
That's because even the best studio monitors will be distorted by your listening environment (desk bounce, room modes etc.) and correcting that distortion will result in better mixes.

The go-to budget measurent mic is the miniDSP UMIK-1 (~£80 Used on eBay), but there is a much less expensive alternative: the £22 Primo EM258.
It's a tiny, unassuming electret microphone which however measures extremely flat.

Here's my TV speaker measured with both a calibrated UMIK-1 and the EM258:

Even after years of carelessly handling the EM258 (dust, humidity, some drops to the floor), it measures within ±1dB of the UMIK-1.

If you're after maximum gain for minimum money, this is it IMO.

 

[Wishplay]

@ Matias Thanks for reminding me about the reference mix. That‘s something I had already completely forgotten.
@ acbarn I only have an iPad to work with. i did (or do have) the Focusrite VRM Box but this is in storage with the rest of my household. I did however already find an iOS app called ‘Housecurve’ with ‘Roon’ which can do what @staticV3 suggests. I will need to read up on this and how I can make these changes. As I’m living in a temporary home I can’t and won’t be doing much or any room treatment.

While I most certainly will be checking my mixes on headphones I do want to get some monitors as it just feels different. This is but one step in-between where I really feel the need and opportunity to record some songs whilst learning more about mixing. Once and if I will settle somewhere longer I can take it to the next level. Now I’m just ‘open’ for creative expression and learning so a bare minimum must do. Once I travel on it will be only a backpack and guitar again. Hence the choice for the cheapest but workable option.

 

[Bernard23]

@Wishplay
One thing that I would strongly recommend you buy no matter what studio monitor you decide on is a measurement microphone.
That's because even the best studio monitors will be distorted by your listening environment (desk bounce, room modes etc.) and correcting that distortion will result in better mixes.

The go-to budget measurent mic is the miniDSP UMIK-1 (~£80 Used on eBay), but there is a much less expensive alternative: the £22 Primo EM258.
It's a tiny, unassuming electret microphone which however measures extremely flat.

Here's my TV speaker measured with both a calibrated UMIK-1 and the EM258:
View attachment 292659
Even after years of carelessly handling the EM258 (dust, humidity, some drops to the floor), it measures within ±1dB of the UMIK-1.

If you're after maximum gain for minimum money, this is it IMO.

Does it need any special software, or app? Just looking at it now

 

[staticV3]

The EM251 is a basic electret microphone and does not require special software to function. You can use whatever you want.

You do need a headset input with plug-in power to power the electret capsule though.
The least expensive way that I know of is an Apple dongle with a CTIA splitter.

 

[yafengabc]

@Wishplay
One thing that I would strongly recommend you buy no matter what studio monitor you decide on is a measurement microphone.
That's because even the best studio monitors will be distorted by your listening environment (desk bounce, room modes etc.) and correcting that distortion will result in better mixes.

The go-to budget measurent mic is the miniDSP UMIK-1 (~£80 Used on eBay), but there is a much less expensive alternative: the £22 Primo EM258.
It's a tiny, unassuming electret microphone which however measures extremely flat.

Here's my TV speaker measured with both a calibrated UMIK-1 and the EM258:
View attachment 292659
Even after years of carelessly handling the EM258 (dust, humidity, some drops to the floor), it measures within ±1dB of the UMIK-1.

If you're after maximum gain for minimum money, this is it IMO.

Thank you for your recommendation. I have always wanted to do some measurement work, but the measurement microphone is too expensive. It's not worth using a $200 device to measure my $50 speaker until I saw that you recommended EM258, which I can buy in China for less than $10.
What I want to ask now is, besides the EM258 microphone, what else do I need? For example, can a USB sound card be used by simply plugging it into the microphone port on a PC? Also, I saw that you mentioned that the microphone needs to be calibrated. Does this require professional equipment?

 

[staticV3]

besides the EM258 microphone, what else do I need?
can a USB sound card be used by simply plugging it into the microphone port on a PC?

Yes.

Another possibility would be the Apple headphone adapter, though depending on what pinout you use for the 3.5mm plug, you may have to use a CTIA headset splitter to connect the two.

Also, I saw that you mentioned that the microphone needs to be calibrated. Does this require professional equipment?

The graph above was measured with an uncalibrated EM258, just the raw response.

In theory, if you can borrow a reference mic, then it's possible to calibrate the EM258 by measuring the in-room response of a system using both microphones, then calculating the difference.

 

[-Matt-]

I don't really know anything about recording and you probably don't need an audio interface but just in case you are tempted down that route...

I bought a Motu M4 for use as a desktop DAC and I can say that they make some very nice hardware. However, my real point is about software... The M4 should have come with a license for some DAW software but because I bought from ebay the license had already been used/expired. Just be aware of this difference when comparing used vs new prices. It didn't matter for me as the M4 works fine as a DAC without any special software but if you want to record the software may be a lot more important (allowing low latency loopback etc).

 

[yafengabc]

Yes.

Another possibility would be the Apple headphone adapter, though depending on what pinout you use for the 3.5mm plug, you may have to use a CTIA headset splitter to connect the two.


The graph above was measured with an uncalibrated EM258, just the raw response.

In theory, if you can borrow a reference mic, then it's possible to calibrate the EM258 by measuring the in-room response of a system using both microphones, then calculating the difference.

Thank you for your reply. My device is already in transit by express delivery. Also, may I ask if it is possible to measure the frequency response curve of in ear headphones? What additional equipment is needed for measurement?

 

[staticV3]

Also, may I ask if it is possible to measure the frequency response curve of in ear headphones? What additional equipment is needed for measurement?

To measure IEMs, an IEC60318-4 coupler is required.

There are expensive, high quality and low tolerance versions of this made by GRAS and Brüel & Kjær, as well as very affordable versions available on AliExpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800603481769.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000918270847.html

Here's a graph which shows the difference in frequency response with the same IEM unit measured on an expensive GRAS coupler and a cheap knockoff from AliExpress.
Multiple IEMs were measured this way and the average was plotted in red:

One IEM showed bass roll-off which turned out to be damage to the IEM, so this artifact was excluded from the AVG.

And here's the same graph, but using other AliExpress couplers of the same construction, so you get a feel for unit-to-unit variation:


In conclusion: for around $80-100 you can get a coupler that performs within ~±1dB of a professional GRAS coupler, up to 8kHz.

However, there is a chance that you get one which performs really poorly, like you see in the last graph.