Upgrading from Fluid Audio FX8

[nemoral]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum, though I’ve been lurking here for quite a while now. I’m currently a bit conflicted about what the next step should be in upgrading the setup in my room, and I’d really appreciate some input.

I’ve been using Fluid Audio FX8s for the last 10 years, and about 7 of those in my current studio setup. I never really felt a strong need to upgrade, even though they’re not exactly flat by design. What always bugged me, though, is the noticeable hiss, they're pretty loud in that regard, and since I usually mix at around 60 to 70 dB, it can get annoying. That said, I do most of my mixing, probably 90 percent of the process, in mono on headphones. Only during the final stages do I switch over to my monitors for stereo imaging and overall balancing. This workflow has been working quite well for me, and generally, my mixes translate okay.

One of the main issues I’ve noticed over time, though, is that the FX8s might actually be too detailed because of the coaxial design. I mostly produce bass-heavy, hypnotic or raw techno, and in my studio, all the elements - ear candy, percussion, textures are clearly separated and easy to hear. But once I take a track into a club environment, especially ones with poor acoustics and exaggerated low-end, it’s a different story. The mix can start to sound cluttered, and it becomes hard to make out the individual parts. The clarity just doesn't carry over. I’ve learned to compensate somewhat by being more deliberate in my arrangement and sound selection, but still, I often find that certain elements end up too quiet or just not sitting right in the club setting.

Regarding my studio, it is basically my bedroom, L 370cm, W 320cm H 255cm. I’ve treated the first reflection points and ceiling with 20 cm thick rockwool, and the corners behind the monitors are treated floor to ceiling. The overall response is fairly balanced, and the waterfall graph looks decent for a room this size. I’ve tried adding more treatment, but ironically, the more I add, the worse the frequency response seems to get. I get more nulls, and while the decay improves, the overall balance starts to fall apart. The monitors are about 140 cm apart.

An important point is that I plan to EQ my next setup just like I’ve done with my current one. The responses I’ll share below are completely stock, without any EQ. With EQ, I’ve managed to get things sounding much more pleasing. I’ve added quite a bit of bass and rolled off the high end, which gives me that warm, heavy sound that I prefer. I’ve gotten used to it over the years, and I don’t feel like it negatively affects my judgment when mixing, except for the fact that, again, I think there’s just a bit too much detail that ends up misleading me when translating to club systems.

So with everything in mind, what I definitely don’t want from my next setup is an unrealistic amount of detail. I’d like something that’s more in line with the type of systems I’m mixing for - standard 2 or 3-way PA club systems. That means avoiding coaxial designs, ribbon tweeters, or anything else that might overemphasize micro-details. What I do want is bass. I need monitors that can go down to at least 40 Hz, like my current ones, since that’s essential for the kind of music I make.

I also don’t think I want to spend more than $1000 on the setup. These are the options I’ve been considering so far:

• Kali LP-6 v2 plus a sub (around $400 new for the pair, plus whatever a decent sub costs)
• Yamaha HS8 (about $400 used, though I’m worried about the rear port since my monitors are close to the wall)
• Focal Alpha 80 (around $600 used)

The big question that’s been bothering me is this: should I try adding a sub to address the null, or is that likely to make things worse? What would you recommend for my situation, considering everything above?


Thanks in advance.

 

[AnalogSteph]

1. These measurements are pretty rollercoaster-y. Are they single point? Try MMM instead, it should quieten things down substantially from a few hundred Hertz up. These 2-way stick-out coaxials will always have some resonance issues requiring attention, mind you. That is the price you pay for improved level handling / mitigated Doppler distortion. They are only viable thanks to DSP technology to begin with.
2. You may have a fair bit of treatment but possibly not in the right spots. Plus I still see a lot of what looks like bare wall and laminate flooring.
3. Have you thought about adding "club mush" by applying some sort of convolution / room simulation VST? That strikes me as a more direct approach to your problem than actively trying to make your monitoring setup worse.
4. Kali IN-8v2s would strike me as fairly good candidates. With the on-axis treble dip nobody would accuse them of being overly detailed, they have good bass coverage without it intruding on the midrange, and hiss is very low.

 

[nemoral]

1. Yes, the measurement is single point, if you mean measured from approximately where my head is, holding it besides my ear, facing forwards, not the monitors and then playing a sweep.

I have followed your instructions and advice, never heard of that MMM thing, here are the results, seems much better:

2. Can't do anything else regarding the treatment, it would make the room a lot harder to live in if you know what I mean.

3. Yep, tried that, I do that sometimes, but, I don't find it super "immersive" and realistic. Will explore that option further if necessary.

4. Also looked into them, they seem to have a worse response than LP6v2 according to Spinorama while being twice as cheap? That's why I proposed a sub, to get rid of this 90ish hertz null that is present. On the measurement above it seems to have "disappeared", but if I play a sinus at around that frequency, I can clearly hear the phase cancellation happening and a pretty noticeable drop in volume.

 

[AnalogSteph]

1. Measure L and R individually first before trying to address L+R. Getting that in phase above Schröder freq may be a fool's errand anyway, or at least it would require rather dead acoustics. (I would also measure closer than MLP if you want to get a good idea of on-axis or thereabouts response and derive some PEQs. Like I said, designs like the FX80 tend to have issues that require some attention, and the above would definitely be too wiggly past ~1 kHz for my tastes. Just make sure REW and your PEQ VST share the same ideas about PEQ implementation as well as sample rate.)

3. Keep looking, I'd say.

4. "Twice as cheap"? That would indicate half the price, rather than double. And worse response, well, there's some coax eccentricities in the treble (makes you wonder how a more "traditional" 3-way by Kali would do), but at least they won't fall apart in the midrange at higher levels. The basic Kali 5-8" woofers have some of the worst electrical nonlinearity around although excursion-wise they hold up quite decently, so overall they are a better match for Kali's 3-ways than the 2-ways. Those will benefit from a sub on account of reduced levels, but not as much as something with better-behaved drivers would. I wouldn't want your upgrade to turn into a downgrade or sidegrade after all.

ADAMs would be a popular choice for your use case, but I think the interesting models are rather out of your budget, except for T8Vs I guess.

As to the offending 90 Hz cancellation, have you consulted REW's room sim on where it might be coming from?

 

[nemoral]

1. Got it, so basically EQ L and R channels individually, and then address L + R curve (as I had already done in the past actually)? I measured exactly at the MLP, holding the mic pointing towards the ceiling, moving it around and following all the other instructions.

4. Yeah, I meant twice as expensive I guess haha. I am strongly looking into the idea of Kali LP6V2 + sub, Erin's video ticks all the boxes for my use case, horizontal consistency is amazing, therefore EQ is very much appreciated, vertical not so much (not that it matters in my case).

"The basic Kali 5-8" woofers have some of the worst electrical nonlinearity" - What do you mean with this, are you saying that, for example, each transient they produce will sound audibly inconsistent, or is this just theoretical territory that you're stepping into?

Also, I honestly never turn monitors higher than 70-80dB, and even that is on a few rare, few seconds only, occasions.

Regarding REW room simulation, my room has a wardrobe recess behind my listening position, so it's not really a rectangle shaped, although there is a wardrobe occupying that space. Anyways, it suggests the speaker height is the culprit. They're sitting at 1.26m right now and REW suggests around 1.12m would get rid of that null. Kalis would be sitting lower due to the tweeter's height and their dimensions. so they could solve the problem in theory. I ought to try lowering one of my speakers first and seeing what happens in the real world.

That ADAM looks nice, but I am skeptical about that ribbon, or perhaps hybrid ribbon tweeter? Why would that be better than the Kalis, why do you think Kalis are a sidegrade?

EDIT: Just saw that T8Vs are rear ported, I thought that's a bad idea in my scenario of placing the speakers very close to a wall? Does it cause resonances at the port tuning frequency?

Thank you for your expertise, it is greatly appreciated even if I have to take time and understand what you're actually saying before attempting to reply. I am far from an expert in acoustics.

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't think "too much detail" or the coaxial design are your problems per se, (Genelec's best stuff is coaxial) I think it's probably the wonky midrange, especially the peak/ dip between 1-3 khz. There is almost a 10dB swing between ~1700 and 2400hz even in your MMM graph. When I read your description of how mixes sound in the club that was my first thought, that you were being misled on the mids.

The savage look of your lower treble region in the single mic measurement in particular, with a scooped looking mid-range, would indicate a muddy mix if you didn't compensate for it.

You just need monitors with an actually flat response to start, to that end, I would only recommend the Kalis of models mentioned ITT but I'd say you should also see if you can stretch your budget to some Genelec or Neumann, perhaps secondhand.

 

[AnalogSteph]

In the meantime, flattening out the existing speakers via PEQ based on measurements should be a good exercise and already help a fair bit, even if it won't be as good as when starting with something having smooth DI to begin with. (You can expect the general trend for the FX80s to be alright but with some kinks here and there, similar to the FX50.)

"The basic Kali 5-8" woofers have some of the worst electrical nonlinearity" - What do you mean with this, are you saying that, for example, each transient they produce will sound audibly inconsistent, or is this just theoretical territory that you're stepping into?

No, it just means that they are quite prone to (intermodulation) distortion related to inductance nonlinearity at higher levels.
If you look at Erin's LP-6v2 review, nearly 1% of midrange H3 at 86 dB with a corresponding 0.4-0.5 dB dip in response linearity vs. 76 dB is pretty meh for a 6.5". That's not a ton better than the much smaller (4.5") LP-UNF, which in itself has fairly average woofers to begin with. (And a Neumann KH80 is in another universe, as is the IN-8v2.) In fact, he has reviewed 3" class speakers with better midrange distortion performance, although they obviously fall apart in the bass.

EDIT: Just saw that T8Vs are rear ported, I thought that's a bad idea in my scenario of placing the speakers very close to a wall? Does it cause resonances at the port tuning frequency?

The rule of thumb is that you shouldn't be facing any issues as long as you've got about one port diameter to spare, i.e. a few inches. Being near a boundary will bring up the bass in general but that's easily EQ'd down and only means higher SPL reserves.

 

[nemoral]

Thank you so much once again everyone, I will do my research diligently and will update this topic for future reference because there is SO LITTLE information on Fluid Audio monitors and people's objective experience in general.

 

[nemoral]

Here's the update.

I spent the whole afternoon trying to get a better response using the abovementioned MMM method. I have achieved some great results with REW Auto EQ + Equalizer APO (from the looks of it). Here are some MMM RTA measurements:

No EQ (blue) vs L EQd, R EQd, and then a "final" curve to balance L + R response. (yellow)

The sound is a lot better honestly, in conjunction with the house curve, everything just sounds more, very subjectively, "as it should".

On the other hand, I have also managed to find the cause of the null. Moving speakers up or down didn't do anything, just made things worse for the most part. What did help is trying to put one of them on the floor, to simulate a sub. Here's the result:

The null is gone by placing the right speaker on the ground, close to the bass trap, port facing the 1st reflection point panel.

So the conclusion is, smaller speakers + sub would probably yield the best response. Can anyone confirm my findings? @AnalogSteph @kemmler3D

 

[kemmler3D]

Here's the update.

I spent the whole afternoon trying to get a better response using the abovementioned MMM method. I have achieved some great results with REW Auto EQ + Equalizer APO (from the looks of it). Here are some MMM RTA measurements:

No EQ (blue) vs L EQd, R EQd, and then a "final" curve to balance L + R response. (yellow)

View attachment 451381

The sound is a lot better honestly, in conjunction with the house curve, everything just sounds more, very subjectively, "as it should".

On the other hand, I have also managed to find the cause of the null. Moving speakers up or down didn't do anything, just made things worse for the most part. What did help is trying to put one of them on the floor, to simulate a sub. Here's the result:

View attachment 451388

The null is gone by placing the right speaker on the ground, close to the bass trap, port facing the 1st reflection point panel.

So the conclusion is, smaller speakers + sub would probably yield the best response. Can anyone confirm my findings? @AnalogSteph @kemmler3D

The yellow curve looks a heck of a lot better, a big change from before, nice.

Moving the speaker to remove the null makes sense, you can probably just plop a sub near that spot and get a similar result.

I don't know if smaller speakers is the answer, mainly and especially for studio monitors, you want flat on axis and smooth off axis. @AnalogSteph has also given a lot of good advice here on additional important considerations.

Small size per se is only really desirable if you lack space or you need to sit really close to the speaker. The tradeoff is lower output and higher distortion.

If you haven't seen spinorama.org, it collects a large number of high quality measurements of speakers, you can browse and compare quite a bit.

If there is good info on your current speakers, it's there, it's also a good way to start thinking about what pair you'd like to get next.

Smooth off-axis frequency response is not something I understood the importance of for a long time, but basically if the on-axis (anechoic or close mic) is flat, but there are spikes in the off-axis response, the net result is you still hear the spikes as the sound reflects around the room. As we know, spikes are bad, so flat on axis is not enough.

 

[nemoral]

I don't know if smaller speakers is the answer, mainly and especially for studio monitors, you want flat on axis and smooth off axis. @AnalogSteph has also given a lot of good advice here on additional important considerations

I meant, budget-wise. Makes no sense to get an 8 inch monitor with a sub if the monitor is not gonna use most of its 8 inch woofer?

I've been looking into some budget subwoofer options like the "PreSonus Eris Sub 8" that supposedly goes down to around 30hz, just to see how it goes with my current setup. Or perhaps it's worth getting a Fluid/PreSonus/Adam 10 inch woofer which goes down to 20hz, but are all double the price? Not sure if it's worth it in my case because my room is rather small for such a low bass.

If you haven't seen spinorama.org, it collects a large number of high quality measurements of speakers, you can browse and compare quite a bit.

I found it a few days ago, great stuff, my speakers are not on the list, but will take a much closer look at it now that I have some real world insight and feedback from you guys. Learned a lot in these 3-4 days of research. To be honest, at the moment, I am thinking of getting a sub, and eventually down the line, get a, by design flatter pair of monitors that don't hiss like a rabid cat. Right now, regarding monitors, Kali LP6v2s seem like the best bang for your buck, I don't plan to play them loud, so shouldn't suffer from drawbacks that @AnalogSteph mentioned.

Smooth off-axis frequency response is not something I understood the importance of for a long time, but basically if the on-axis (anechoic or close mic) is flat, but there are spikes in the off-axis response, the net result is you still hear the spikes as the sound reflects around the room. As we know, spikes are bad, so flat on axis is not enough.

Amen to that, that's perhaps, from my current point of view, almost more important than the actual response since DSP/EQ correction is almost mandatory.

 

[kemmler3D]

Makes no sense to get an 8 inch monitor with a sub if the monitor is not gonna use most of its 8 inch woofer?

Oh, I get you. Yes, if you plan to have a sub or two, 6.5" is usually enough for the monitors, that's how my setup is. You can get lower bass distortion with a bigger speaker either way, but it's more of a nice-to-have for most situations.

Amen to that, that's perhaps, from my current point of view, almost more important than the actual response since DSP/EQ correction is almost mandatory.

You might find you need a lot less EQ with a very well behaved monitor. I managed to get a super deal on a pair of Genelec 8030s secondhand, and they only need the lightest touch of EQ above 300hz in my room. Usually if the off axis is smooth the on axis is pretty good too.