Configuring a PC as a 8-ch pre/pro experiment

[Vasr]

Software like Jriver make things simpler (at a cost) but it is a walled garden approach. It is like a soft-AVR on its own and they have done a good job. But everything has to be done from inside JRiver.

My experiment being described in this thread is to create a general solution that will work for any content player on the PC one may want to use and/or don't to pay for JRiver. For people who may want to do this instead of buying an AVR or going through a commercial solution like JRiver in a walled-garden approach.

I've used JRiver for ages, and sent the video to the monitor via HDMI while sending the audio to whatever preamp/processor I'm using via USB and never have I had severe latency issues, but then again I use an I7 with 16 gb of memory and a Samsung Evo SS drive. So no problems with latency.

The latency here has nothing to do with the power of the processor. Any software decoding of even the simplest codec like AC3 is very slow. But if you have a single player doing both audio and video rendering, then they have control over both to keep them in sync. If you have a weak CPU, it requires more time to buffer ahead and start. All media players do this - Kodi, MPC-BE, VNC, etc.

If you are using pass-through of the encoded audio to a preamp processor then there would be no decoding and so no latency issues of course. But if you have pre/pro available, the case for paying for JRiver is weaker. YMMV.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Software like Jriver make things simpler (at a cost) but it is a walled garden approach. It is like a soft-AVR on its own and they have done a good job. But everything has to be done from inside JRiver.

My experiment being described in this thread is to create a general solution that will work for any content player on the PC one may want to use and/or don't to pay for JRiver. For people who may want to do this instead of buying an AVR or going through a commercial solution like JRiver in a walled-garden approach.


The latency here has nothing to do with the power of the processor. Any software decoding of even the simplest codec like AC3 is very slow. But if you have a single player doing both audio and video rendering, then they have control over both to keep them in sync. If you have a weak CPU, it requires more time to buffer ahead and start. All media players do this - Kodi, MPC-BE, VNC, etc.

If you are using pass-through of the encoded audio to a preamp processor then there would be no decoding and so no latency issues of course. But if you have pre/pro available, the case for paying for JRiver is weaker. YMMV.

J River is only $60, and if since I am not using outside media, I have no need or desire for a pre/pro box, especially since they come with some of the worst performing DACS Amir has tested. Using JRiver, I get all the things a pre/pro does (like routing of channels, bass management, PEQ, and DSP, while obtaining cutting edge DAC performance with one less box, and a poorly performing box at that.

 

[Vasr]

J River is only $60, and if since I am not using outside media, I have no need or desire for a pre/pro box, especially since they come with some of the worst performing DACS Amir has tested. Using JRiver, I get all the things a pre/pro does (like routing of channels, bass management, PEQ, and DSP, while obtaining cutting edge DAC performance with one less box, and a poorly performing box at that.

I agree with your on the pre/pros. My motivation was indeed to avoid the pre/pros as I stated at the beginning because they are too expensive or too compromised even if they worked good enough.

JRiver is fine for your requirements. What they have done is essentially what I have done here with a nice usability packaging around it as long as all media playing is going through JRiver.

 

[ernestcarl]

I agree with your on the pre/pros. My motivation was indeed to avoid the pre/pros as I stated at the beginning because they are too expensive or too compromised even if they worked good enough.

JRiver is fine for your requirements. What they have done is essentially what I have done here with a nice usability packaging around it as long as all media playing is going through JRiver.

I use JRiver extensively, but the more alternatives the better.

Very much appreciate the detailed instructions!

 

[Vasr]

I use JRiver extensively, but the more alternatives the better.

Very much appreciate the detailed instructions!

Hope people find it useful. I also wanted a minimum investment solution that would allow experimentation with REW, etc to get into room eq. Right now, that barrier is high (technically if not economically) for people who want to do that just to get set up. This setup done once will allow that flexibility. So, I hope more people will try it without having to fight the necessary set up to get there.

As to JRiver, I see them as addressing different target audiences and co-existing. JRiver appeals more to people who come with a Desktop app paradigm and are using their HTPC as a PC. That does not work for people like me who view the HTPC as a TV-like appliance using Kodi/Plex/Emby/MPC etc where the fact that it is a PC is hidden in user experience. Since these apps don't involve themselves in AVR like features, a general solution is necessary. This solution also applies if, for example, you are gaming on that PC and want the full eq'd multi-channel experience without a downstream AVR or Pre/Pro doing that.

 

[bigjacko]

Do you know how to make foobar play with 8 channel out? I tried matrix mixer plug in but it did not work. The 7.1 upmix works but I think the channels will play different things, so not ideal.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I am most interested to hear of your experiences.

I owe it all to Kal. He has something similar in a PC/NAS that he keeps evolving into a new or improved thing. He is deeply into Mch music and videos, as I am, and he had a major influence on me. It was through him that I embarked on a NAS to store DSD Mch files, from a Sony PS/3 and later to an Oppo103.

It has been about 6 years since I started using a PC as the key to my sound system. Alas, it is now defunct.

Components:

PC - just an ordinary I7, about 6 years old. Win7, 64bit, 16gig of RAM, 1TB hard drive. Unlke you, I had HDMI. Optical Blu-ray drive and DVD/CD drive. NVidia video card. Net cost, about $1,000. There were quite ordinary things in the network, too.

NAS - Synology 1813+ with 5-drive extension, 54 TB. Still, It does not store my BD operas, concerts, ballets. I might get a new one, an 1819+ with 96 TB

Tuner - Silicon Dust HD Homerun Prime - cable card TV tuner attached to the network and interfacing with JRiver.

DAC - ExaSound E38 Balanced attached via 15’, non-exotic USB2 cable from PC.

Amps - Spectron, Bryston Powerpac 120, 2 Parasound A23’s

Speakers - 7 Martin Logan electrostat hybrids: Prodigy, Stage, Clarity, Script-i

Subwoofer - JL Audio f113

Tuner - Sharp Elite 70” HD via HDMI from PC

Software - JRiver, Dirac Live

On the software front, I have found everything I need in JRiver. Mch was no problem. Bass management. Format conversions. Lip synch, Etc. JRiver had all the controls necessary to be a separate prepro. But, it had the necessary capabilities to handle tagged library of a large, classical collection of Mch SACDs, Blu-ray’s, DVD’s, CDs, TV, etc. Can anybody else make a similar claim? It’s $60, outright, for life, plus $20 annual maintenance, which is optional.

Dirac Live, the Mch PC version with PCM 192K/24 sampling resolution, was a major advance over my prior experience with Audyssey XT/32, when I was in my prepro days.

That was it. All of it. No prepro or receiver. It played mono, stereo, Mch up to 7.1 channels from NAS, optical Blu-ray, DVD and CD. It was obsolescent, but I sold nearly every piece.

I have to say, it was a real treat for me. It was like a dream come true in Mch. The best system of my life, easily by far, and I have been though a lot of them. I had been an audiophile for 60 years. It was far, far ahead of the sonic experience in my Mch prepro or stereo days. My stereo had Krell, Levinson, Audio Research, Theta Digital, etc. No comparison.

I am a bits is bits guy. So, I did not see the necessity of doing anything exotic or out of the ordinary in the PC or network. It sounded great.

The reason that it’s defunct: I am now in an apartment in a retirement home awaiting my future sound system, which is on its way - a Smyth Realiser 16 with Sennheiser 800s. I sill have the NAS and all the Mch files.

 

[Vasr]

Multi-channel music and Multi-channel HT have some differences in requirements and processing (some of which I have detailed in my notes). Some of them make HT easier, some make music easier. Handling just stereo is much, much easier.

In a mixed-system where one of them (Music or HT) isn't necessarily a higher priority, the key is to consider the most difficult requirements of either. That makes it a bit tricky.

AVRs try to do this and don't do so well in either domains especially for the cost. So, a DIY PC solution becomes a much more attractive option. You can get better quality for both music and HT content. As long as you are OK with the limitations I have mentioned relative to an AVR.

JRiver does a good job of removing most of that complexity and you can look at it as a Software AVR in terms of integration.

They even have the ability to include MadVR for video which is a must for any serious ripped HT content viewing. To me, it is the equivalent of using RoomEq for audio in the stark improvement you get before and after especially if you are up-scaling content.

The downside as I have mentioned above is the PC like interface which works fine if you are only doing music or using it on a desktop. The HT experience (especially for a family use) precludes any use of a keyboard except for configuration. So I use Kodi for launching my music and video content rather than foobar (unless I have to play some SACDs or DSDs). Don't know if JRiver these days have a "TV skin" for their interface, haven't looked at it lately.

The ability to see the results of Dirac or even REW eq on a home theater experience was eye-opening. No one complains anymore about difficulty in hearing dialogs (from the center channel). The level balancing and phase adjustments between speakers remove the necessity of spending huge amounts of money to get great matching speakers all around. It also makes the ambience much more immersive with smooth transitions from speaker to speaker even for a 5.1 system.

The effect of Room EQ on music is much better understood but not as much for HT when correctly done. Even with AVRs which don't seem to do a good job of integrating surround speakers well with their built-in EQ.

The biggest downside to PC-based DIY unless you use something like JRiver is the big learning curve to get things right. Will appeal more to those to build their own PCs, run Linux or a Hackintosh, etc.

Hopefully, my instructions make it a bit easier to get more people to enjoy the best they can get out of such a system for very little investment.

 

[Gadgety]

Until Dirac bass management is available for PC, the bass management here works fine to integrate a sub.

Maximum 8 channels total though for the PCM output. So you can set it up for 5.2 but not 7.2.

I was going to write up some notes on how to do this but it can be quite an undertaking to describe it in a fool-proof way. I am not sure how much interest there is in replicating such a set up here to make it worthwhile.

Thank you Vasr for putting together this overview and guide. I believe Dirac Live for Studio, the PC application, now offers multichannel with bass management and control, where bass control generally is employed below 80Hz as it contains very little directional information (which also allows multiple subs). Dirac's web page states that it supports the following multichannel configurations: 2.0, 2.1, 3,1, 4.1, 5.0, 5.1, 6.0, 6.1, 7.0, 7.1, 7.0.2, 7.1.2, Quadraphonic, Pentagonal, Hexagonal, Octagonal, Ambisonic. It includes fourth order, 24 dB/octave, Linkwitz-Riley cross-over filters. The user guide states that "there is no limit on the number of speakers in the system."

 

[Vasr]

Thank you Vasr for putting together this overview and guide. I believe Dirac Live for Studio, the PC application, now offers multichannel with bass management and control ...

Dirac Live PC software (for measurements) is common to all Dirac implementations in hardware as well as the Dirac Live Processor which runs on the PC as that "hardware box" to apply filters to the audio stream. Dirac Live relies on downstream Dirac enabled hardware box to do bass management. DLP does not implement Bass Management yet AFAIK (crossovers, EQ over crossed-over small speakers, etc). So when you use Dirac Live on a PC stand-alone with DLP, all the channels look like full-range ("large") speakers to Dirac Live measurements. So the above guide does bass management downstream of Dirac processing within EAPO and transparent to DIrac.

 

[Gadgety]

...Dirac Live relies on downstream Dirac enabled hardware box to do bass management. DLP does not implement Bass Management yet AFAIK (crossovers, EQ over crossed-over small speakers, etc). So when you use Dirac Live on a PC stand-alone with DLP, all the channels look like full-range ("large") speakers to Dirac Live measurements. So the above guide does bass management downstream of Dirac processing within EAPO and transparent to DIrac.

The reference to the multichannel configurations is on Dirac's pro audio VST plugin page "Dirac Live for Studio Multichannel." It states "the solution...is not integrated in any hardware" and then refers to multichannel configurations: 2.0, 2.1, 3,1, 4.1, 5.0, 5.1, 6.0, 6.1, 7.0, 7.1, 7.0.2, 7.1.2, Quadraphonic, Pentagonal, Hexagonal, Octagonal, Ambisonic. So would those only work if there is required hardware downstream? If you have this multichannel software in its latest iteration and it doesn't do the crossover to the subwoofer then of course my understanding is incorrect. In that case Dirac's page could be much clearer that additional hardware is required to run those multichannel configurations.

 

[Vasr]

The reference to the multichannel configurations is on Dirac's pro audio VST plugin page "Dirac Live for Studio Multichannel." It states "the solution...is not integrated in any hardware" and then refers to multichannel configurations: 2.0, 2.1, 3,1, 4.1, 5.0, 5.1, 6.0, 6.1, 7.0, 7.1, 7.0.2, 7.1.2, Quadraphonic, Pentagonal, Hexagonal, Octagonal, Ambisonic. So would those only work if there is required hardware downstream? If you have this multichannel software in its latest iteration and it doesn't do the crossover to the subwoofer then of course my understanding is incorrect. In that case Dirac's page could be much clearer that additional hardware is required to run those multichannel configurations.

The nuance is what I described above. It can do multi-channel in Dirac Live and in DLP and you can pick any of those configurations. But that just picks the number of channels processed independently in the DLP. There is no way to specify a crossover or a speaker as small in DLP/DL. So, it sends LFE channel to the Sub and the other speaker channels to the respective main, center and surround speakers with Dirac correction. So, if you have all "large" speakers and need no crossovers, it is fine. Otherwise you need an external crossover solution (in software or hardware) to direct the streams with a crossover. It even seems to do full range frequency sweeps to the Sub for measuring. In other words, 7.1 is just processed as 8.0 for all practical purposes, for example. it doesn't care what is connected to those channels.

The Dirac web site is a disaster with lots of old or missing or inconsistent information. It is run like a bad startup with great technology.

During the beta test phase they only had the 2.0 VST usage instructions. They have only updated the guides to the multi-channel VST usage this month for the solution I have described above using Voicemeeter that I had to discover on my own before then.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The nuance is what I described above. It can do multi-channel in Dirac Live and in DLP and you can pick any of those configurations. But that just picks the number of channels processed independently in the DLP. There is no way to specify a crossover or a speaker as small in DLP/DL. So, it sends LFE channel to the Sub and the other speaker channels to the respective main, center and surround speakers with Dirac correction. So, if you have all "large" speakers and need no crossovers, it is fine. Otherwise you need an external crossover solution (in software or hardware) to direct the streams with a crossover. It even seems to do full range frequency sweeps to the Sub for measuring. In other words, 7.1 is just processed as 8.0 for all practical purposes, for example. it doesn't care what is connected to those channels.

You can, of course, do bass management upstream of the DLP in software with appropriate music management software.

 

[Vasr]

You can, of course, do bass management upstream of the DLP in software with appropriate music management software.

The reply was explaining how Dirac gives the impression (to the poster I was responding to) that bass management is currently available for stand-alone use on a PC as part of Dirac and why that isn't true.

Of course, there are ways to do it outside it like the system-wide set up I have described above which uses Voicemeeter for a system-wide setup, not just one application. Since the Dirac multi-channel solution is now reliant on Voicemeeter in their guide for system-wide correction, the solution I have is easy to do as part of the same Voicemeeter set up for applicability system-wide.

Doing it within specific application helps only content playing from that software and even if one says that is all their use case is, there is a technical reason to recommend against doing the cross-over upstream of the Dirac processing.

Best solution is to integrate bass management with Dirac measurements and calculations so that it can smartly design the crossover point and take care of any artifacts like phase alignment in the cross-over region, etc.

But when that is not available yet, doing the crossover downstream is my preference which makes the Dirac measurement happen with the crossover in place to detect/correct any phase/level issues. If the cross-over is upstream, then you are measuring with Dirac without the crossover and playing content with crossover which can add its own artifacts. In addition, if you want to play with different crossover points and test the correction, it is better to generate the filters for the changed configuration than keep the same filters and keep changing the crossover point upstream.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Best solution is to integrate bass management with Dirac measurements and calculations so that it can smartly design the crossover point and take care of any artifacts like phase alignment in the cross-over region, etc.

I completely agree but it is an option.

 

[Gadgety]

The nuance is what I described above. It can do multi-channel in Dirac Live and in DLP and you can pick any of those configurations. But that just picks the number of channels processed independently in the DLP. There is no way to specify a crossover or a speaker as small in DLP/DL....

Thank you for your explanation and clarification.

 

[3ll3d00d]

anyone come across anything other than jriver that can fulfil this role and can do > 8 channels? I use jriver atm but some stability when using the WDM driver mean I am looking for an alternative, need 13 channel output though.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I am most interested to hear of your experiences.

I owe it all to Kal. He has something similar in a PC/NAS that he keeps evolving into a new or improved thing. He is deeply into Mch music and videos, as I am, and he had a major influence on me. It was through him that I embarked on a NAS to store DSD Mch files, from a Sony PS/3 and later to an Oppo103.

It has been about 6 years since I started using a PC as the key to my sound system. Alas, it is now defunct.

Components:

PC - just an ordinary I7, about 6 years old. Win7, 64bit, 16gig of RAM, 1TB hard drive. Unlke you, I had HDMI. Optical Blu-ray drive and DVD/CD drive. NVidia video card. Net cost, about $1,000. There were quite ordinary things in the network, too.

NAS - Synology 1813+ with 5-drive extension, 54 TB. Still, It does not store my BD operas, concerts, ballets. I might get a new one, an 1819+ with 96 TB

Tuner - Silicon Dust HD Homerun Prime - cable card TV tuner attached to the network and interfacing with JRiver.

DAC - ExaSound E38 Balanced attached via 15’, non-exotic USB2 cable from PC.

Amps - Spectron, Bryston Powerpac 120, 2 Parasound A23’s

Speakers - 7 Martin Logan electrostat hybrids: Prodigy, Stage, Clarity, Script-i

Subwoofer - JL Audio f113

Tuner - Sharp Elite 70” HD via HDMI from PC

Software - JRiver, Dirac Live

On the software front, I have found everything I need in JRiver. Mch was no problem. Bass management. Format conversions. Lip synch, Etc. JRiver had all the controls necessary to be a separate prepro. But, it had the necessary capabilities to handle tagged library of a large, classical collection of Mch SACDs, Blu-ray’s, DVD’s, CDs, TV, etc. Can anybody else make a similar claim? It’s $60, outright, for life, plus $20 annual maintenance, which is optional.

Dirac Live, the Mch PC version with PCM 192K/24 sampling resolution, was a major advance over my prior experience with Audyssey XT/32, when I was in my prepro days.

That was it. All of it. No prepro or receiver. It played mono, stereo, Mch up to 7.1 channels from NAS, optical Blu-ray, DVD and CD. It was obsolescent, but I sold nearly every piece.

I have to say, it was a real treat for me. It was like a dream come true in Mch. The best system of my life, easily by far, and I have been though a lot of them. I had been an audiophile for 60 years. It was far, far ahead of the sonic experience in my Mch prepro or stereo days. My stereo had Krell, Levinson, Audio Research, Theta Digital, etc. No comparison.

I am a bits is bits guy. So, I did not see the necessity of doing anything exotic or out of the ordinary in the PC or network. It sounded great.

The reason that it’s defunct: I am now in an apartment in a retirement home awaiting my future sound system, which is on its way - a Smyth Realiser 16 with Sennheiser 800s. I sill have the NAS and all the Mch files.

Waiting for the Smyth Realiser A16, the audiophile equivalent of "Waiting for Godot"!

 

[Vasr]

anyone come across anything other than jriver that can fulfil this role and can do > 8 channels? I use jriver atm but some stability when using the WDM driver mean I am looking for an alternative, need 13 channel output though.

Yes but what the solution is depends on what your case is.

1. What do you want to send the output to? Is it 13 channels of uncompressed PCM? USB can accommodate a large number of channels which varies depending on sample rate and bit depth you need. What is jRiver outputting this to now?
2. Or is it a pass through of some compressed/uncompressed format that can be bitstreamed. If so any player can do this over HDMI or USB but you will not be able to use EQ or crossovers without decoding the stream
3. Where is the content with 13 channels coming from and what decoding if any is needed?
4. Do you need to use Dirac or REW for roomEQ?

In short, it depends on the details of what you are trying to do.

 

[3ll3d00d]

The first one, I use a motu 1248 as the main device with another dac slaved to it. 5.1 system with 2 sub channels and 3 way LCR. I use the jriver convolver and peq for media played back in jriver which is fine (and would stay in use as jriver keeps video in sync with audio irrespective of filter length). wdm looped through jriver for streaming content and I find the wdm device v unstable (some memory leak in jriver makes it v crashy) so would be nice to have an alternative for this.