Classical Instruments: Historical or Modern?

[dasdoing]

Yea one of the most striking discoveries . I often stun people when I tell them that piano is the most out of tune instrument we have ...

I actualy at least partly blame the beating chords for never realy beeing able to develop a love for the instrument. I am not saying I have super-ears or something like that, but my ears are very sensitive to the beating...at least sitting right in front of it; it gets way better when other play it (beating more masked from a distance)

 

[xaviescacs]

Yes a lot of this music is intended for dance or outdoor festivals, events like tournaments. Alta Band (2 shawms and Bucin [long medieval trumpet]) was typical ensemble for such music. Most probably creation of Alta Band was influenced by Saracen military bands seen during crusades.

This is a popular tune with two gralles, a type of shawm.

 

[nerdstrike]

but my ears are very sensitive to the beating

Missed career in piano tuning detected!

To be fair to the poor piano, the harp is also afflicted with even temperament, bass guitars can benefit from fanned frets, and skilled wind instrument players compensate for the instrument's tuning deficiencies on the fly with pressure/embouchure/barrel adjustments.

 

[dasdoing]

Missed career in piano tuning detected!

In my early twens, when I lived alone, I actualy moved that piano to my new apartment and tried to "fix" the cords hahahhaha (*). needless to say that I totaly messed up the tuning. I would only learn about equal temprament many years later.

(*) to my excuse, moving a piano means it has to be retuned anyways, and I didn't have the money to call a professional

 

[xaviescacs]

In my early twens, when I lived alone, I actualy moved that piano to my new apartment and tried to "fix" the cords hahahhaha (*). needless to say that I totaly messed up the tuning. I would only learn about equal temprament many years later.

(*) to my excuse, moving a piano means it has to be retuned anyways, and I didn't have the money to call a professional

The first time I faced the same problem I used the book by Reblitz, were he explains the temperament issue, which I wasn't aware of until then.

 

[PatF]

This is a popular tune with two gralles, a type of shawm.

Folk descendant of medieval shawm

 

[PatF]

sometimes I wonder if bands like this are not closer to real medieval music than HIP performances :

 

[dasdoing]

sometimes I wonder if bands like this are not closer to real medieval music than HIP performances

probably not even wrong

 

[Robin L]

Probably you are right, they are essentially wrong. I admit being ignorant enough about music that I don't know how such and such composers music should be played, if going by the score & time period, and do you know what, I feel all the better for it.

My non-musician take is, if I'm not playing the music, then I'd rather be ignorant and listen to these incorrect interpretations without feeling the music has been desecrated (as some seem to feel). In a number of ways, I feel they musically hit the spot more so than modern orchestras that play like metronomes, always on the beat, always the same (often abbreviated) note length, nothing goes ahead, nothing drags behind, all of a similar colour throughout.

I do wonder if we were to ask Beethoven himself whether he wanted such interpretations, that he had a singular idea of perfection for a certain piece, that not only could be attained, but should be attempted in more or less than same way by all conductors and orchestras, whether he would say yes. I don't know, but my feeling is that the playing of today is not really any less peculiar/particular to a time than that of the 1930s and if we had Beethoven to refer to, he'd likely find them equally foreign to how music was played within his lifetime.

But isn't that some of the point of music, a little sense of the nervous, of the immediate, of a creation happening right now, rather than something honed to a sharp point over endless rehearsals. Another issue I have with modern orchestration is that it all sounds like they have played it 1000 times before, there is no element of risk, no chance of a violinist or flutist holding a note too long or coming in at the wrong time and this seems to give the music a static feeling. To my mind there is such a thing as being too perfect and it can kill music. Without any sense of risk, is it really music?

Listen to this Brahms violin concerto with Toscanini and Heifetz. They seem to be fighting throughout over tempo. Toscanini wants to go slower and Heifetz, as per usual, wants to race ahead. The two titans are butting heads, but this sense of tension, at least to me, is magic. Yes, it is scattershot, yes, it is haphazard, yes, all kinds of liberties might be being taken, but it is living, breathing music, not something suspended in aspic.

Beethoven applied metronome marks to his works, he let us all know what tempi he wanted. This issue is only controversial to performers who want to ignore the composer's direction. Mahler took it much further, and no one questions his score markings.

"Without any sense of risk, is it really music?"

Of course it is. It's simply the music without neuroticism.

" . . . my feeling is that the playing of today is not really any less peculiar/particular to a time than that of the 1930s and if we had Beethoven to refer to, he'd likely find them equally foreign to how music was played within his lifetime."

Then you're not paying attention to the playing. I think that getting musicians to actually play the notes as written is what Beethoven struggled with---"What do I care about your fiddle?"--and his fast tempi are more than enough of a challenge for musicians of any era. He famously did not consider the gentle sensibilities of the musicians he worked with. Post-Historically Informed Performance Practice, the music would sound more correct to Beethoven because that performance would note bowing, phrasing, knowing the actual meaning of tempo indications---"adagio" does not mean slow---and so on. HIP performances might not have sounded exactly right to Beethoven's ears, but Beethoven would probably sucker-punch Furtwängler for his musical violations and give John Eliot Gardnier a pass on account of paying attention to the score:

By the way, these musicians have all played the Eroica too many times. They were overplaying the same works the same way in Toscanini's era---in terms of overplaying the same works, the difference between now and then is that they are now overplaying Mahler and Bruckner as well. I remember talking to a fiddler in the Berkeley Symphony Orchestra, saying she never wanted to play Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony ever again. My ex started out as a world-class oboist, she looked at her future in an orchestra and said the hell with it. Quit at 17 when she had a shot at first chair in a Major League orchestra, thinking of the musical rut she would find herself in.

Just so you understand, I used to collect these antiques, things like Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven Symphony cycle and Furtwängler's wartime recordings. I no longer have most of those recordings on account of less-than-ideal recorded sound quality and misguided performances. I find historically informed performances pay more attention to the details, no-one is dragging the tempi in a gusher of emotion, instead they're all paying much more attention to the subtilties of bowing and phrasing that applied back when these pieces first appeared.

Robin's first rule of Early Music: The right note on the wrong instrument is always more right than the wrong note on the "right" instrument,

I don't think there's anything preventing first class Beethoven from being performed on modern instruments. What really counts is paying attention to the score and the musical culture that is an essential part of performing and understanding these musical works.

 

[Robin L]

sometimes I wonder if bands like this are not closer to real medieval music than HIP performances :

View attachment 229290

I know of one medieval band influenced by Miles Davis, another by Dead Can Dance.

 

[Digby]

Beethoven applied metronome marks to his works, he let us all know what tempi he wanted. This issue is only controversial to performers who want to ignore the composer's direction. Mahler took it much further, and no one questions his score markings.

"Without any sense of risk, is it really music?"

Of course it is. It's simply the music without neuroticism.

We might be at risk of derailing the OPs thread. I'd like to discuss further, maybe we should start our own thread. Any ideas for a title? Perhaps 'what are the limits of interpretation?'

 

[Robin L]

We might be at risk of derailing the OPs thread. I'd like to discuss further, maybe we should start our own thread. Any ideas for a title? Perhaps 'what are the limits of interpretation?'

Not really---Historically Informed Performance Practice is the core of the interest in "original instruments", the reason why it happened. I was involved for the better part of a decade with the San Francisco Early Music Society as a recording engineer. For people interested in the repertoire, the mode of playing was more important than the instrument it would be played on. Increasingly one finds historically informed performances on modern instruments. Many times, musicians do not know the limits of interpretation until they perform on an "original instrument".

 

[dasdoing]

afair there was even a period where composers would left the violin "solo" blank and the 1st violin was free to improvise.
Beethoven having metronome marks isn't realy prooving that the interpretations were strict, neither that he wanted them to be. it just prooves he wanted the overall tempo to be like that. I seriously doubt any composer would compose something mathematicly perfect in his head. take a simple piano piece like "Für Elise"....if you play it strict, with perfect timing, it doesn't have any life, no soul...just sounds like a workout....And than listen to this:

is this how he himself played it? probably not. but is it what he would expect from a performer reading his sheet: probably yes

 

[Digby]

Not really---Historically Informed Performance Practice is the core of the interest in "original instruments", the reason why it happened. I was involved for the better part of a decade with the San Francisco Early Music Society as a recording engineer. For people interested in the repertoire, the mode of playing was more important than the instrument it would be played on. Increasingly one finds historically informed performances on modern instruments. Many times, musicians do not know the limits of interpretation until they perform on an "original instrument".

I'm not sure what to say. Let's stick with the Beethoven 2nd Symphony. You use Furtwangler and Gardiner as examples.

OK, first let me say that the Furtwangler is a 'bit much' in my opinion, this is one of those occasions where his tempo variations and such didn't hit the mark. However, I find the Gardiner wrong in the other direction. The first movement is marked Allegro con brio, so Allegro with spirit. I find the performance without spirit. The tempo is a bit robotic, the dynamics of the instruments are missing, all the note lengths are quite similar, it doesn't seem to me a living, breathing thing.

Let me give you a favourite 2nd of mine for comparison, what are you opinions of it:

For me Szell hits the nail on the head. There are small variations in tempo, the dynamics have the proper swing, notes the proper emphasis - it is lively, engaging and musically interesting. Maybe it is not Beethoven as you think it should be, but it is not flat, nor dull.

The question is this, when Beethoven left his scores, was he leaving a puzzle with all the pieces present, that you just assemble and say look at the marvellous work by Beethoven, or was he leaving a puzzle with a few pieces missing, to be, within reason, interpreted depending on the character and taste of the conductor/soloist etc.

Did Beethoven conceive of his pieces as being so perfect that any understanding of them had to be within very strict limits imposed by the HIIP crowd? How can we be sure of this, isn't this possibly a misunderstanding on their part. For example, I find it hard to believe Beethoven would want music played in a way that sounded unnatural and rigid tempi doesn't seem like something from within nature, but something imposed from without.

 

[PatF]

The question is this, when Beethoven left his scores, was he leaving a puzzle with all the pieces present, that you just assemble and say look at the marvellous work by Beethoven, or was he leaving a puzzle with a few pieces missing, to be, within reason, interpreted depending on the character and taste of the conductor/soloist etc.

Did Beethoven conceive of his pieces as being so perfect that any understanding of them had to be within very strict limits imposed by the HIIP crowd? How can we be sure of this, isn't this possibly a misunderstanding on their part. For example, I find it hard to believe Beethoven would want music played in a way that sounded unnatural and rigid tempi doesn't seem like something from within nature, but something imposed from without.

Please stop thinking what Beethoven wanted etc. Simply we do not know precisely. What we know to some extent is what was prevailing performing style, how notes on different instruments were executed (not with 100% but let say 85-90 %), what was balance between wind instruments and string section. We have general knowledge about what was expected from performers to add, in other words how big freedom they had regarding score etc.

Knowing this we can perform music with historical approach in mind. And this is one of the options.

Second option is performing "old" music with current aesthetic, current mainstream style etc, and this is also valid.

More later....

 

[Digby]

Please stop thinking what Beethoven wanted etc. Simply we do not know precisely.

I agree with you, we are saying the same thing, nobody does nor can know precisely what Beethoven wanted. This is presuming he wanted only one thing from any work, maybe he would be happy to see different branches of performance of a particular work going in different directions, who knows? No one knows for sure.

What we know to some extent is what was prevailing performing style, how notes on different instruments were executed (not with 100% but let say 85-90 %), what was balance between wind instruments and string section. We have general knowledge about what was expected from performers to add, in other words how big freedom they had regarding score etc.

Sure, then the discussion is about what can be done with the 10-15% we don't know about, if we want to be true to what was done at the time. There will be different opinions on this, of course.

Second option is performing "old" music with current aesthetic, current mainstream style etc, and this is also valid.

I wasn't very clear in my previous post.

Unless I have him wrong, Robin L seems to be saying that all performances of Beethoven, even when performed on modern instruments, should be largely informed by HIIP. Your opinion seems different to Robin's, he says people like Furtwangler are taking liberties with Beethoven (in that, he shouldn't conduct how he did), your position seems to be Furtwangler's ideas are fine, as long as they aren't considered historically accurate, given what we know.

We seem to be mostly in agreement, PatF.

 

[posvibes]

I do remember from somewhere that rehearsal time was pretty hit and miss, at short notice and even getting a full complement of players could be a near run thing. Rehearsals may have taken place in the afternoon before the performance. To all intent and purpose it was the contemporary music of the time and it sounds like it had a kind of jazz feel of picking up players, reading the score and cracking on with it. Compared to our current age I'd hazard a guess that the performance of Beethoven's time may have been pretty ordinary.

With the wide ranging knowledge of that period as well as a few hundred years of carried on tradition and modern players steeped in the deep study of the music itself gathered over that period, the young players of today would be far superior to their historical colleagues of the time.

 

[PatF]

Unless I have him wrong, Robin L seems to be saying that all performances of Beethoven, even when performed on modern instruments, should be largely informed by HIIP. Your opinion seems different to Robin's, he says people like Furtwangler are taking liberties with Beethoven (in that, he shouldn't conduct how he did), your position seems to be Furtwangler's ideas are fine, as long as they aren't considered historically accurate, given what we know.

We seem to be mostly in agreement, PatF.

Hmm I do not have that impression or maybe I omitted something....
Robin L most probably is right that it is much more likely that Beethoven would be more happy with Gradiner than Furtwängler.

My positions is that we should not ban or limit artistic freedom of interpretation etc. For me if conductor has his own vision and he can clearly explain it I have no objection. It can not suit my taste or be wrong looking from HIP perspective. He can also violate form of work and from objective perspective it is wrong and we can point it but maybe he wanted to play with convention etc. There is so many approaches, so many possibilities... sometimes interesting, sometimes misguided ... but I am against closing doors for different options.

 

[PatF]

With the wide ranging knowledge of that period as well as a few hundred years of carried on tradition and modern players steeped in the deep study of the music itself gathered over that period, the young players of today would be far superior to their historical colleagues of the time.

I am not so sure... and I am against treating performers from earlier period as inferior to our times. We have to remember that they performed music in one style, music of current time with very deep understanding of aesthetics of the time etc. Also many times parts were written for particular ensemble in mind, particular performer etc.

One striking example is Michael Haydn trumpet concerto (written for extraordinary trumpeter) with very high a''' note, no one today recorded it on natural trumpet ... here is example on vented instrument. 2:18 - 2:44

 

[posvibes]

I'm going to look into this as it sounds fascinating what a marvel it must have been.

Beethoven concert of 22 December 1808 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org