Classical Instruments: Historical or Modern?

[rdenney]

Those recordings of blues singers from before WWII were made when singers had to shout to be heard--in performance venues and in recordings. The 40's were the first time, near as I can tell, when popular-music singers learned how to use the microphone and amplification, and that changed the way they expressed themselves.

The instruments were altered for recordings, too. The tubas used in Dixieland music were usually sousaphones, but with a forward-facing bell. Most people think sousaphones were invented that way, so ubiquitous as the forward-facing bell has been with that configuration. But the original sousaphone had a bell that faced straight up, like a concert tuba. But when recordings were being made starting in the 20's, the bells pointed up couldn't be heard by the one microphone out in front of the group, so the instruments were designed with forward-facing bells for both sousaphones and for lap tubas. In fact, one standard term for a lap tuba with a forward-facing bell is "recording bass". (Tubas were commonly known as "bass horns" in American usage in those days, too, and even right up into my school years. Most published parts for tubas printer prior to about 1975 or 1980 say "Basses" at the top.) I say that to emphasize the need for instruments to be loud to get into the low-sensitivity recording processes of those days.

Rick "apparently, not the only tuba player in this conversation" Denney

 

[Robin L]

Those recordings of blues singers from before WWII were made when singers had to shout to be heard--in performance venues and in recordings. The 40's were the first time, near as I can tell, when popular-music singers learned how to use the microphone and amplification, and that changed the way they expressed themselves.

The instruments were altered for recordings, too. The tubas used in Dixieland music were usually sousaphones, but with a forward-facing bell. Most people think sousaphones were invented that way, so ubiquitous as the forward-facing bell has been with that configuration. But the original sousaphone had a bell that faced straight up, like a concert tuba. But when recordings were being made starting in the 20's, the bells pointed up couldn't be heard by the one microphone out in front of the group, so the instruments were designed with forward-facing bells for both sousaphones and for lap tubas. In fact, one standard term for a lap tuba with a forward-facing bell is "recording bass". (Tubas were commonly known as "bass horns" in American usage in those days, too, and even right up into my school years. Most published parts for tubas printer prior to about 1975 or 1980 say "Basses" at the top.) I say that to emphasize the need for instruments to be loud to get into the low-sensitivity recording processes of those days.

Rick "apparently, not the only tuba player in this conversation" Denney

Late 1920's. Bing Crosby. Have a CD in my hoard of his earliest recordings. His first solo recording was in 1927 - Muddy Water - and Bing Crosby otherwise had a major hand in the development of recorded sound and the use of the microphone in public performance. Big influence on Frank Sinatra.

 

[pablolie]

... Handel's ... Pinnock ...

Great posts, thanks everybody - it's been extremely instructive!

On Handel - I *love* Mackerras recordings of the Royal Fireworks and Water Music. I think they were with Telarc. Love them, often my go-tos when I don't know what to listen to. They draw me in. And correct me if I am wrong, but he was labeled a bit of a "back to basics" guy.

Pinnock another conductor I have always enjoyed.

PS: Can't look up the recordings since I am in a company event in Las Vegas. I am telling you, the people that always claim that live performances are the ultimate expression of high fidelity clearly have not been in Vegas lately... :-D

 

[Robin L]

Great posts, thanks everybody - it's been extremely instructive!

On Handel - I *love* Mackerras recordings of the Royal Fireworks and Water Music. I think they were with Telarc. Love them, often my go-tos when I don't know what to listen to. They draw me in. And correct me if I am wrong, but he was labeled a bit of a "back to basics" guy.

Mackerras is definitely a "hipster" using modern instruments. Love his Mozart Symphony recordings, swift but clean, very dynamic.

 

[pablolie]

How about Martin Pearlman and the Boston Baroque?

 

[Robin L]

How about Martin Pearlman and the Boston Baroque?

I've only heard a little and it didn't move me enough for further exploration.

 

[pablolie]

Mackerras is definitely a "hipster" using modern instruments. Love his Mozart Symphony recordings, swift but clean, very dynamic.

That said, this is what I kinda remembered and found: ".. Mackerras was an early proponent of historically informed performance (HIP), particularly with Baroque and Classical repertoire. He worked with period instruments and consulted historical sources to guide his interpretations .."

I recall he wrote about it in album notes, and the NYT obituary (why are they all dead now? :-( ) seemed to reflect on him as someone that did want to include some period authenticity into his works. His Telarc work seems to show it, because it certainly didn't sound like anything I'd heard from other prolific conductors (I admit growing up through Karajan and Bernstein performances, which were televised all the time when I was an early teen, and heaven knows they were prolific album creators).

I have zero authority to challenge any of the way more educated views in this thread, don't think I am remotely trying. This is a learning experience for me as a completely, independent amateur learner and fan of classical music for way longer than I care to admit. I always liked a lot of music, but I recall being the odd teen among all my friends that was an utter fan of classical music. We had a version of those monthly subscriptions to Time Life kinda stuff and I made sure to buy the latest vinyl in the collection every month. One of the favorite memories in life I will take to my grave was the fact... when I moved away to go to University, I was too busy and too broke to keep collecting. When I got back home after a year and a half... my Dad had kept buying every new album, and they were there waiting for me in my room. Meticulously stacked up by the side of the stereo system I had put together in my room with his discarded pieces of stereo equipment. God I miss that man.

 

[Titurel]

That said, this is what I kinda remembered and found: ".. Mackerras was an early proponent of historically informed performance (HIP), particularly with Baroque and Classical repertoire. He worked with period instruments and consulted historical sources to guide his interpretations .."

I recall he wrote about it in album notes, and the NYT obituary (why are they all dead now? :-( ) seemed to reflect on him as someone that did want to include some period authenticity into his works. His Telarc work seems to show it, because it certainly didn't sound like anything I'd heard from other prolific conductors (I admit growing up through Karajan and Bernstein performances, which were televised all the time when I was an early teen, and heaven knows they were prolific album creators).

I'm with you. I'm fine with historically informed performances, as long as "informed" doesn't sound too much like "handcuffed."

For any who suspect I'm in some way anti-early music, I confess right here to having served 3 years in an ensemble which seldom performed music written after 1700. You know you're in trouble when Bach feels like "new music."

 

[pablolie]

..(I admit growing up through Karajan and Bernstein performances, which were televised all the time when I was an early teen, and heaven knows they were prolific album creators).
...

I know this is not the topic to directly ask this - but let me ask: When I was increasingly learning to love classical music... I think the greatest supporting force was the fact that, on one of the two over the air channels we had... every Saturday at 11am, there was a classical concert on the air. It was the Vienna or the Berliners with Bernstein and Karajan respectively (among many others). What a privilege that was in hindsight! This was in Spain as it started sharing content with other European channels after the Franco dictatorship (which I was born into).

It seemed a Karajan and Berstein competition for European air waves back then, especially with the new year concerts that were a big attraction. Nothing like that seems to be on the airwaves these days, sadly. Was that ever something that happened elsewhere?

 

[Robin L]

I know this is not the topic to directly ask this - but let me ask: When I was increasingly learning to love classical music... I think the greatest supporting force was the fact that, on one of the two over the air channels we had... every Saturday at 11am, there was a classical concert on the air. It was the Vienna or the Berliners with Bernstein and Karajan respectively (among many others). What a privilege that was in hindsight! This was in Spain as it started sharing content with other European channels after the Franco dictatorship (which I was born into).

It seemed a Karajan and Berstein competition for European air waves back then, especially with the new year concerts that were a big attraction. Nothing like that seems to be on the airwaves these days, sadly. Was that ever something that happened elsewhere?

Bernstein had a number of television shows via the CBS network. The most famous were the "Young People's Concerts". I watched those whenever I could. My love of the music of Charles Ives comes directly from those programs. My understanding is that Bernstein had television programs prior to this aimed at adults. PBS broadcast Opera for many years.

 

[Robin L]

That said, this is what I kinda remembered and found: ".. Mackerras was an early proponent of historically informed performance (HIP), particularly with Baroque and Classical repertoire. He worked with period instruments and consulted historical sources to guide his interpretations .."

I recall he wrote about it in album notes, and the NYT obituary (why are they all dead now? :-( ) seemed to reflect on him as someone that did want to include some period authenticity into his works. His Telarc work seems to show it, because it certainly didn't sound like anything I'd heard from other prolific conductors (I admit growing up through Karajan and Bernstein performances, which were televised all the time when I was an early teen, and heaven knows they were prolific album creators).

I have zero authority to challenge any of the way more educated views in this thread, don't think I am remotely trying. This is a learning experience for me as a completely, independent amateur learner and fan of classical music for way longer than I care to admit. I always liked a lot of music, but I recall being the odd teen among all my friends that was an utter fan of classical music. We had a version of those monthly subscriptions to Time Life kinda stuff and I made sure to buy the latest vinyl in the collection every month. One of the favorite memories in life I will take to my grave was the fact... when I moved away to go to University, I was too busy and too broke to keep collecting. When I got back home after a year and a half... my Dad had kept buying every new album, and they were there waiting for me in my room. Meticulously stacked up by the side of the stereo system I had put together in my room with his discarded pieces of stereo equipment. God I miss that man.

I am a musical amateur, and my technical knowledge was not all that great either. I was snared by a lot of audiofoolery when I was making recordings. There was a lot of on-the-job learning. I can't really read music, though I can count bars and follow score that way. It appears that my audio memory is very good. So, a lot of my work was editing digital recordings with my two-channel Digidesign Soundesigner II editing station, hooked up to an Apple tower. I had to edit in big chucks, then transfer to a DAT recorder. My first hard drive had a capacity of only 2 gigs. Crazy to contemplate that I now have a tiny pocket DAP with a .5 terabyte Micro SD chip the size of my pinky nail. I was good at making inaudible edits thanks in large part to those Stax Earspeakers. And over time more and more of what was noted as sheet music became comprehensible to me. But I never was as fluent as the sight-readers I recorded. Some didn't really care as long as I got the job done. Some looked down on me because of my lack of musical knowledge.

I was one of those odd teenagers who collected classical music LPs by the time I was 15, had a component stereo by the time I was 18. My dad was mostly annoyed, felt that I was putting on airs. Felt a bit odd socially but by the time I was in my 30s it made no difference.

 

[KikoKentaurus]

I want to buy this as soon as I can

Spoiler: 3D-printed cornetti

although jeremy west states that resin sounds better than nylon.

 

[SMc]

Chailly's set is great but it's with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra.

My mistake! And I even read an old review out of curiosity without noticing.

 

[rdenney]

I am a musical amateur, and my technical knowledge was not all that great either. I was snared by a lot of audiofoolery when I was making recordings. There was a lot of on-the-job learning. I can't really read music, though I can count bars and follow score that way. It appears that my audio memory is very good. So, a lot of my work was editing digital recordings with my two-channel Digidesign Soundesigner II editing station, hooked up to an Apple tower. I had to edit in big chucks, then transfer to a DAT recorder. My first hard drive had a capacity of only 2 gigs. Crazy to contemplate that I now have a tiny pocket DAP with a .5 terabyte Micro SD chip the size of my pinky nail. I was good at making inaudible edits thanks in large part to those Stax Earspeakers. And over time more and more of what was noted as sheet music became comprehensible to me. But I never was as fluent as the sight-readers I recorded. Some didn't really care as long as I got the job done. Some looked down on me because of my lack of musical knowledge.

I was one of those odd teenagers who collected classical music LPs by the time I was 15, had a component stereo by the time I was 18. My dad was mostly annoyed, felt that I was putting on airs. Felt a bit odd socially but by the time I was in my 30s it made no difference.

In my youth, building a large collection of records was not a possibility. But my parents, in response to interest I showed, bought for me a compilation set ("120 Classic Music Performances on Four LP's!" or some such) and of course it was just excerpts. Maybe a little after that time, when I first was learning the tuba, I borrowed a cassette that had Beethoven's 5th on one side (Karajan, maybe, or Bruno Walter) and Schubert's 8th on the other. I made an (illegal!) copy of that using the microphone to speaker technique, and played that into oblivion. The only time I was able to attend a symphony concert was as part of a school tour, even though I lived in a city that had a first-class performance hall, a good orchestra, and André Previn on the podium. The real record-buying didn't begin in earnest until late college and just after.

Nearly a couple of decades later, I was recording the symphony group in which I played first on a Teac 4010 (which I had saved from the dumpster and rebuilt--still have it), and just transitioned my recording to VHS tape with HiFi sound. That's the first time I heard a recording in earphones that sounded like real life (I think that crossed the -65 dB distortion threshold, which seemed to me transformative, plus its sheer dynamic headroom over noise compared to linear-running tape at 7-1/2 IPS). Those recordings reveal just how bad most amateur orchestras are, but they are precious to me, and one reason I maintain the ability to play open-reel tapes.

One of my good friends in those years was an avid record collector and I spent many evenings at his house listening to stuff in his collection. I owe much of my breadth of musical experience to him. From that time until I moved to Virginia, I was a regular symphony attendee, many years with at least two orchestras (Austin and San Antonio, or Dallas and Fort Worth), and of course I was playing music all the time in those years.

It was during that time that the first Norrington recording appeared, sparking much debate amongst my orchestra friends. But I had already been exposed to a lot of HIP through my friend's collection, dozing through Hogwood recordings, etc. He was really into Monteverdi and other late Renaissance and early Baroque composers, so the statement that Bach was novel has meaning for me. After two hours enduring Monteverdi, something--anything--by Bach is truly refreshing. But I also became and still am a fan of the English Renaissance composing corps. Of course, music of that era is the raison d'être for historically informed performance, so there were lots of attended performances that have shaped my views on the topic.

Rick "and that was followed by polkas and beer-tent music " Denney