Class D: Better with Low Efficiency Speakers?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

But I must admit, tubes look hot!

Yes, they feel hot, too. Don't touch.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Is all (or most of) the talk about timbre really talk about legacy amplifiers that cannot reproduce the frequency curve without audible distortion?

Yes. But, I don't think it is much about frequency response. Most any competent amp from the last 5 decades has had at least 20-20k Hz response. I believe it is about added "euphonic", even order harmonics, mainly 2nd order. Tubes are good generators of that. Vinyl does it too.

 

[A.wayne]

The tube amps I have tested in person easily get distorted. They simply don't have the power capacity for the type of listening I do.

Well test bigger ones then ..........

Is all (or most of) the talk about timbre really talk about legacy amplifiers that cannot reproduce the frequency curve without audible distortion?

Thats hillarious ..........

 

[A.wayne]

Yes. But, I don't think it is much about frequency response. Most any competent amp from the last 5 decades has had at least 20-20k Hz response. I believe it is about added "euphonic", even order harmonics, mainly 2nd order. Tubes are good generators of that. Vinyl does it too.

It either sounds natural or it doesn't, all this hypothesis is decades old BTW and yet , here we are , tooobs and analog for days .......

 

[svart-hvitt]

Well test bigger ones then ..........

A good 300 wat



Thats hillarious ..........

What's hillarious?

PS: I am slow

 

[A.wayne]

It is because for years audiophiles have been sold the lie that valves are somehow 'better' than solid state , I have no problem with anyone using amything as long as they are aware why the sound is different.
Keith

What lie was this Keith , what lie was told to say they were better .... ?

lots of inherent greatness in tooobs, SS designers since their inception been trying to mimic their linearity and extremely low distortion , good tooby pre's are not hard to find , amps , yes, many not investing in output transformers like they should and no my current beaters are all SS, but i do have toooby stuff, an SET can be very special on the right speakers ...

Well if your intent is musical enjoyment and not critical missions ...

Regards ...

 

[Deleted member 65]

Well, somehow this reminds me of the 2008 igNobel Chemistry prize, pick your igNobel prize winner Deborah / Chuang-Ye ... ;-)

CHEMISTRY PRIZE. Sharee A. Umpierre of the University of Puerto Rico, Joseph A. Hill of The Fertility Centers of New England (USA), Deborah J. Anderson of Boston University School of Medicine and Harvard Medical School (USA), for discovering that Coca-Cola is an effective spermicide, and to Chuang-Ye Hong of Taipei Medical University (Taiwan), C.C. Shieh, P. Wu, and B.N. Chiang (all of Taiwan) for discovering that it is not.

REFERENCE: "Effect of 'Coke' on Sperm Motility," Sharee A. Umpierre, Joseph A. Hill, and Deborah J. Anderson, New England Journal of Medicine, 1985, vol. 313, no. 21, p. 1351.

REFERENCE: "The Spermicidal Potency of Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola," C.Y. Hong, C.C. Shieh, P. Wu, and B.N. Chiang, Human Toxicology, vol. 6, no. 5, September 1987, pp. 395-6. [NOTE: THE JOURNAL LATER CHANGED ITS NAME. NOW CALLED "Human & experimental toxicology"]

WHO ATTENDED THE CEREMONY: Deborah Anderson, and C.Y. Hong's daughter Wan Hong

 

[Blumlein 88]

It either sounds natural or it doesn't, all this hypothesis is decades old BTW and yet , here we are , tooobs and analog for days .......

Nope, nope, nope.

Can't let this one go. "It either sounds natural or it doesn't". Very poor approach.

From what I have seen, most audiophiles will equate a slightly soft, lush sound with natural. Listen to the microphone feeds however, and natural doesn't 'sound natural'. Listen to real live music and it doesn't sound natural either. Now big orchestras in big halls and you not sitting front row don't sound harsh. But Jazz trios, and even chamber music up close definitely doesn't have this soft sonorous sound quality in general. A violin in a domestic sized room doesn't have silky sound.

So the natural sound of LP, or reel tape or tubes isn't really natural. There are simply common ways most people will find easier to listen to even when presented with the more accurate portrayal.

That is before we begin to consider how nearly all recordings are done in a way that if accurately reproduced have been so highly processed that a 'natural sound' is almost surely an indictment of coloration being involved.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Nope, nope, nope.

Can't let this one go. "It either sounds natural or it doesn't". Very poor approach.

From what I have seen, most audiophiles will equate a slightly soft, lush sound with natural. Listen to the microphone feeds however, and natural doesn't 'sound natural'. Listen to real live music and it doesn't sound natural either. Now big orchestras in big halls and you not sitting front row don't sound harsh. But Jazz trios, and even chamber music up close definitely doesn't have this soft sonorous sound quality in general. A violin in a domestic sized room doesn't have silky sound.

So the natural sound of LP, or reel tape or tubes isn't really natural. There are simply common ways most people will find easier to listen to even when presented with the more accurate portrayal.

That is before we begin to consider how nearly all recordings are done in a way that if accurately reproduced have been so highly processed that a 'natural sound' is almost surely an indictment of coloration being involved.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe..,

 

[March Audio]

It either sounds natural or it doesn't, all this hypothesis is decades old BTW and yet , here we are , tooobs and analog for days .......

Whats natural? You cant equate peoples penchant for tubes and say vinyl for hifidelity.

 

[March Audio]

It is because for years audiophiles have been sold the lie that valves are somehow 'better' than solid state , I have no problem with anyone using amything as long as they are aware why the sound is different.
Keith

Keith, you have the Benchmark amp yes? IIRC this has extremely low distortion for an ab amp. How would you characterise its sound?

 

[March Audio]

Nope, nope, nope.

Can't let this one go. "It either sounds natural or it doesn't". Very poor approach.

From what I have seen, most audiophiles will equate a slightly soft, lush sound with natural. Listen to the microphone feeds however, and natural doesn't 'sound natural'. Listen to real live music and it doesn't sound natural either. Now big orchestras in big halls and you not sitting front row don't sound harsh. But Jazz trios, and even chamber music up close definitely doesn't have this soft sonorous sound quality in general. A violin in a domestic sized room doesn't have silky sound.

So the natural sound of LP, or reel tape or tubes isn't really natural. There are simply common ways most people will find easier to listen to even when presented with the more accurate portrayal.

That is before we begin to consider how nearly all recordings are done in a way that if accurately reproduced have been so highly processed that a 'natural sound' is almost surely an indictment of coloration being involved.

This is my experience also.

 

[March Audio]

but i do have toooby stuff, an SET can be very special on the right speakers ...

Well if your intent is musical enjoyment and not critical missions ...

Regards ...

....on the right speakers..........well personally Im not interested in an audio lottery . Amps or speakers that behave in certain ways that mean they need special consideration to what they are partnered with are a waste of time. Too many good alternatives out there.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ceci n'est pas une pipe..,

Exactly.

In audiophile terms:

It is a natural sound......
describes what is not a natural sound.

 

[A.wayne]

Nope, nope , nope , Not quite ....





Respond when keyboard based .....

 

[watchnerd]

Yes. But, I don't think it is much about frequency response. Most any competent amp from the last 5 decades has had at least 20-20k Hz response. I believe it is about added "euphonic", even order harmonics, mainly 2nd order. Tubes are good generators of that. Vinyl does it too.

I think so, too,

I admit to enjoying it, but I won't claim it's high fidelity.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I think so, too,

I admit to enjoying it, but I won't claim it's high fidelity.

That is my position too. I enjoy my LP records (and my valve amps and horn speakers) They add euphonic colouration (well perhaps not the horns).
I have no problem with people enjoying anything they like, but as I have written often before the digital recorders I have used sound just like the microphone feed and the analogue ones do not. The distortion is euphonic but certainly audible from my Revox B77, the best tape recorder I have.
In addition, the manufacturing process for a stereo LP mandates certain limitations in order to be possible, moving the LP still further from accurate reproduction.
It may seem natural to some but it isn't high fidelity.

 

[watchnerd]

That is my position too. I enjoy my LP records (and my valve amps and horn speakers) They add euphonic colouration (well perhaps not the horns).
I have no problem with people enjoying anything they like, but as I have written often before the digital recorders I have used sound just like the microphone feed and the analogue ones do not. The distortion is euphonic but certainly audible from my Revox B77, the best tape recorder I have.
In addition, the manufacturing process for a stereo LP mandates certain limitations in order to be possible, moving the LP still further from accurate reproduction.
It may seem natural to some but it isn't high fidelity.

I think this is really the crux of the religious schism -- too many audiophiles equate personal preference for accuracy, for reasons I don't understand.

If you like a bit of euphonia in your system, listen in good health and enjoy it, but why the need to pretend its more objectively accurate?

I see the same criticisms leveled at Class D / switching amps, the claims that even the modern good ones sound "sterile", which might really mean "lacking euphonics."

 

[Thomas savage]

I think this is really the crux of the religious schism -- too many audiophiles equate personal preference for accuracy, for reasons I don't understand.

If you like a bit of euphonia in your system, listen in good health and enjoy it, but why the need to pretend its more objectively accurate?

I see the same criticisms leveled at Class D / switching amps, the claims that even the modern good ones sound "sterile", which might really mean "lacking euphonics."

It's awful nice when you can affirm each others imaginations, create a new reality where just by drawing layman conclusions you will always be right or at least your thoughts will always be valid no matter what.

I'm starting to feel rather joyous just thinking about it, sure beats the real world where I can't work out how the toaster works and my wife treats me with A bucketful of contempt sprinkled with a loathing distain.

 

[watchnerd]

It's awful nice when you can affirm each others imaginations, create a new reality where just by drawing layman conclusions you will always be right or at least your thoughts will always be valid no matter what.

I'm starting to feel rather joyous just thinking about it, sure beats the real world where I can't work out how the toaster works and my wife treats me with A bucketful of contempt sprinkled with a loathing distain.

Time to retreat to the barbecue.