Carver Crimson 275 Review (Tube Amp)

[respice finem]

A great deal of high quality, niche-market equipment has been manufactured over the years that did not have certification, but which was perfectly safe. Then there are certified products that sometimes fail to protect due to manufacturing errors. The only real guarantee of safety is to inspect the individual piece internally or use an ohmmeter to be sure the chassis is connected to the third wire ground.

I know such problems from the last century, when I used to live in Poland. The appliances were theoretically certified, but the production sometimes, oh well... And, the sockets were either 2 wires only, or 2 wires + a "fake earthing", many older houses there (including mine) are still wired this way. The same socket will work with today's 3-wire installation so there's no way to tell by just looking at it. https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plug-voltage-by-country/poland/ The attitude those days was "electricity only hurts when you can smell it"...

 

[paulbottlehead]

No, in audio it is, if you didn't return it in 30 days, you are screwed!

The latest from Jim Clark:

"You have a satisfaction guarantee for 30 days with a Bob Carver purchase from Jim Clark Stereo in which you can return the 275 for a full refund.. I encourage customers to compare these amplifiers in direct head to head comparisons to any other amplifiers of a similar power rating. I’m not concerned with sine waves and powering load resistors to be perfectly honest. Who listens to sine waves and load resistors? Thats pretty boring and tells you nothing about the amplifiers sound, driving music into speaker loads.

A site with ‘Audio’ in the title seems to ignore this point. Maybe the word Audio, implying sound, should be changed to ‘load resistor’?

I carry products because they are musical and sound great within their price range. I compare several models within a price point and listen to them with different combinations of front ends and speakers.

The units I can offer a satisfaction guarantee with, due to their musical performance are the ones I carry.

The unit has to play well with a variety of other gear and make the customer happiest to win, and not get returned.

The buck stops with the amplifiers performance playing music signals into speakers loads, and the 275 does this better than any I had listened to. Some were over 2x its price.

Customers should continue enjoying the very musical nature of this product, made especially for playing music into loudspeaker loads, and not be concerned with sine wave inputs and driving load resistors.

Use the 275 to play music into loudspeakers and it will make you smile every day without fail… Now if you want to stick your head between load resistors and play sine waves, buy something else."

Jim Clark at Carver Stereo Forum

 

[traderitch]

That kind of deception, however, likely keep many, many attorneys gainfully billing to an MDL (multi district litigation).

With fourth tier audio garbage, the specs are not regulated, the sales numbers likely don’t likely justify a class action, and the companies are too poor to make it worth anything to the attorneys, let alone the prospective plaintiffs. Also the prospective plaintiffs are generally not that smart, so they justify nonsense instead of getting angry.

The discussion of law suits is misplaced.
It appears that most of the dealers that sell the amps in question offer the ability to return the items.
Again, if I am happy with the performance of my purchases (audio or automotive) why would I care?

Class action law suits are rarely pro bono...

For purposes of discussion:
If we were measuring the efficacy of the manufacturer stated distance a fire extinguisher could function....

 

[voodooless]

So this is one of them pump reviews Amir promised us?

 

[Martin]

The latest from Jim Clark:

"You have a satisfaction guarantee for 30 days with a Bob Carver purchase from Jim Clark Stereo in which you can return the 275 for a full refund.. I encourage customers to compare these amplifiers in direct head to head comparisons to any other amplifiers of a similar power rating. I’m not concerned with sine waves and powering load resistors to be perfectly honest. Who listens to sine waves and load resistors? Thats pretty boring and tells you nothing about the amplifiers sound, driving music into speaker loads.

A site with ‘Audio’ in the title seems to ignore this point. Maybe the word Audio, implying sound, should be changed to ‘load resistor’?

I carry products because they are musical and sound great within their price range. I compare several models within a price point and listen to them with different combinations of front ends and speakers.

The units I can offer a satisfaction guarantee with, due to their musical performance are the ones I carry.

The unit has to play well with a variety of other gear and make the customer happiest to win, and not get returned.

The buck stops with the amplifiers performance playing music signals into speakers loads, and the 275 does this better than any I had listened to. Some were over 2x its price.

Customers should continue enjoying the very musical nature of this product, made especially for playing music into loudspeaker loads, and not be concerned with sine wave inputs and driving load resistors.

Use the 275 to play music into loudspeakers and it will make you smile every day without fail… Now if you want to stick your head between load resistors and play sine waves, buy something else."

Jim Clark at Carver Stereo Forum

Martin

 

[LowBlow]

Love this marketing blurb:
”Another significant benefit of the 350 relates to its ability to listen to the room, often referred to as the "speaker-microphone effect." Facilitated by a special current feedback loop, these amplifiers can hear the room's reverb and unique sonic signature. By design, 350 uses the speaker as a microphone by using the speaker in reverse (the theorem of reciprocity) to listen to the room, thereby allowing a portion of the room acoustic to be expressed through the main speakers. As such, the room becomes an integral part of the music in a way sold-state amps do not permit. The resulting sound feels more majestic and realistic, and the soundstage larger and more compelling. It's a sensation you seriously need to hear for yourself.”

 

[traderitch]

Automobile manufacturers fix their cars when they don't meet published specs:

• https://www.caranddrivercom/news/a36600375/bmw-m550i-xdrive-acceleration-fix/
• https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2001-12-06-0112050445-story.html

Will the Bob Carver Corporation fix their under-performing amplifiers?

Martin

Martin,

I do not know the answer to that question.
My posts are not intended to defend anyone.
My experiences are ones of personal ownership.

I may have missed one of your prior posts - do you own a 275?
Have you listened to one?

 

[AudioTodd]

I won't name them, but one dealer lists this thing as "This product is no longer available for purchase."

I wondered how long that would take.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

It would be fun to see someone either modify or completely redesign one of these, as it should have been done, then compare to the original head-to-head.

 

[respice finem]

I won't name them, but one dealer lists this thing as "This product is no longer available for purchase."

I wondered how long that would take.

Record-breaking performance is usually sold out quickly

 

[jhaider]

The discussion of law suits is misplaced.
It appears that most of the dealers that sell the amps in question offer the ability to return the items.
Again, if I am happy with the performance of my purchases (audio or automotive) why would I care?

Fair point. I guess honestly and truth are of little value to broad swaths of society.

As for returns, these are generally time limited by date of purchase, not discovery of design, production, or specification defect. (This tested sample has all three.)

Also, where did you get “pro bono” out of “gainfully billing” or “the companies are too poor to make it worth anything to the attorneys…”? This kind of matter is clearly not appropriate for pro bono. We’re talking about rich people who were lied to about their stupid toys, not indigent plaintiffs.

 

[traderitch]

So you have skin in this game, huh?

You signed up for ASR last week and all the messages you've posted thus far are aimed at creating FUD around Amir's measurements. Can you tell us your affiliation, if not your real name?

I am not creating FUD around anything.

I do have 'skin in the game' as I am an owner of the product in question.

My intention is not to 'pick a fight' here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I only hope that I am as well.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Love this marketing blurb:
”Another significant benefit of the 350 relates to its ability to listen to the room, often referred to as the "speaker-microphone effect." Facilitated by a special current feedback loop, these amplifiers can hear the room's reverb and unique sonic signature. By design, 350 uses the speaker as a microphone by using the speaker in reverse (the theorem of reciprocity) to listen to the room, thereby allowing a portion of the room acoustic to be expressed through the main speakers. As such, the room becomes an integral part of the music in a way sold-state amps do not permit. The resulting sound feels more majestic and realistic, and the soundstage larger and more compelling. It's a sensation you seriously need to hear for yourself.”

Wow. Ok, I want to see the circuit that is doing that. It is somehow getting feedback from the speaker cones and then adjusting it to somehow "magically" know what your room wants/needs. All this is happening during music, not a test tone like all of the room correction circuits. This is obviously some next level Star Trek stuff and I have to know how they are doing it. At this point it is all "magic" to me........

 

[respice finem]

It would be fun to see someone either modify or completely redesign one of these, as it should have been done, then compare to the original head-to-head.

Probably the simplest would be to leave the looks as they are and place a small class D amp in the base
A 50$ part should outperform this easily. Then get it "subjectively tested" to have the sales lyric, job done.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

Who/what is the current "Bob Carver Corporation"? I'm under the impression that Bob Carver is no longer involved. Trying to throw the guy a bone here...I wonder if he designed a competent amp but failed in who to trust to manufacture and market it?

The CEO is industry veteran Frank Malitz. The last time I interacted with him last year, he mentioned that Bob Carver was still involved and essentially the company's CTO.

 

[traderitch]

Fair point. I guess honestly and truth are of little value to broad swaths of society.

As for returns, these are generally time limited by date of purchase, not discovery of design or specification defect. (This product has both.)

Also, where did you get “pro bono” out of “gainfully billing” or “the companies are too poor to make it worth anything to the attorneys…”? This kind of matter is clearly not appropriate for pro bono. We’re talking about rich people who were lied to about their stupid toys, not indigent plaintiffs.

Sorry - my point was implied in logical context.
Class action law suits tend to profit the legal professional more than the individual on a pro rata basis.
Consumers who are perfectly happy with their purchase are often dragged in to the suits.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

Probably the simplest would be to leave the looks as they are and place a small class D amp in the base
A 50$ part should outperform this easily. Then get it "subjectively tested" to have the sales lyric, job done.

You could even add a little microphone and some DSP room correction, then the amp could "listen to the room" for real!

 

[Chazz6]

The latest from Jim Clark:
...
Jim Clark at Carver Stereo Forum

Clark then edited his reply five times within 15 minutes. I take that as a sign he wants to defend the product while he knows that every detail of his defense will get rational scrutiny.

 

[Martin]

Martin,

I do not know the answer to that question.
My posts are not intended to defend anyone.
My experiences are ones of personal ownership.

I may have missed one of your prior posts - do you own a 275?
Have you listened to one?

I have listened to the 275 and 350 at several audio shows. I thought the ones I heard sounded decent. My experience only proves to me how easy it is to deceive oneself. I would not use one if it was given to me... I would sell it however... same as I sold all my high dollar interconnects and power cords.

I still have a few pieces of audiophila in my setup. I like them but I've never directly compared them to other components.

Martin

 

[AudioTodd]

Probably the simplest would be to leave the looks as they are and place a small class D amp in the base
A 50$ part should outperform this easily. Then get it "subjectively tested" to have the sales lyric, job done.

You could cover the cost by selling those expensive output tubes and putting some obscure, never-used-anymore type in their places and just run the heaters!