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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

EJ3 said:
My opinion: Dylan wrote the occasional good song. But they were only good if they were sung by someone else (and it doesn't matter what format they are in).
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I disagree completely and think you're missing the point of his music. There's a perfect alignment between his lyrics, messages and his singing and music. Since I've mentioned Pavarotti I'll use him as an example; Pavarotti can't sing Subterranean Homesick Blues, Mr. Tambourine Man, Billy 4 or Shelter From The Storm. It's like saying Tom Waits would've never gotten admitted in the Milan Scala Choir. Who gives a f? Tom Waits was put on this earth to sing Chocolate Jesus and not prance around at the opera.

But that's the problem with one's expectations not with the crooning. Crooning fits some messages just like distortion fits Heavy Metal. The right message with the right style. It's just that there is a considerable number of stuck-up high-brows who rush to flaunt their knowledge about solfeggio.

Incidentally, that's why that Nirvana idiot killed him self. He felt like a failure because corporate goons still in monkey suits and a neck tie would go straight from the office after a long day of "hard outsourcing" down to a Nirvana concert to have a blast. So he said his message didn't get through. While the real problem was that they made cute little summer hits, schalgers that never bothered anyone. It was the wrong aesthetic for the message.

There are no corporate goons at Bauhaus or Einsturzende Nebauten.
 
MattHooper said:
There was some interesting stuff in this post. Which of course ended up being leveraged for the typical anti vinyl rant.

So in the interest of balance…. ;)



And yet vinyl can often sound fantastic. Which goes to show that talk of mere technological differences doesn’t always accurately portray real world differences.

I appreciate that you were talking about technical best case scenarios for vinyl.
But my point is you don’t even need best case scenarios for vinyl to sound really good.
My vinyl collection comprises, new vinyl and plenty of old secondhand vinyl, and excellent sound can be heard across all of those. And as I’ve said many times before, I find some claims of recognize to be exaggerated as I rarely hear noise while the music is actually playing on a track.



More typical exaggeration. See above: you don’t need perfect scenarios or heroic efforts in creating vinyl records in order to produce very good sound quality. In fact there have been digital versus vinyl sound files posted on this forum, where the digital record was not the subject of any heroic efforts, and differences can be perceived, they were overall fairly subtle. So this gulf between heaven and Hell is a rather ridiculous characterization.





That is true for a great many music listeners whether their source is digital or vinyl! You are missing out some key aspects of the listening experience.



But of course the typical person buying a $150 Crosley ISN’T big on “sound quality.” They are typically teenagers who just want to spin some records. Whereas you seem to be comparing that crowd to some undescribed person listening to digital sources and some idealized way that will always trounce vinyl! That’s just not apples to apples. The vast majority listening to digital sources like streaming also don’t have “ overall sound quality as a priority.”

My wife loves music, but she listens to most of her music through the crappy speakers of her Apple laptop, and through our colored-sounding kitchen smart speaker! That goes for plenty of people who listen to digital sources.

See that’s a thing that you’re an analysis is really missing. You talk about all the liabilities of vinyl, and then imply that simply listening to digital gets you that “ far more accurate to the master listening experience.” But you aren’t accounting for how people actually listen!

What is the point of having a far more accurate digital signal if your playback system is not very accurate? Like so many peoples playback system. And a further question could be asked: what does it matter if your digital signal produces more accurate detail from the master recording, if the way you were listening is not about caring about that detail, or even conducive to hearing or concentrating on that detail??

Again, many people just listen to their music as background these days to other activities. They’re not concentrating on all these fine points of accurate detail about the master.

My wife certainly isn’t as she’s cooking or surfing the web while her music plays on the Smart speaker. People listen in their cars (we will cover up plenty of detail), while walking or jogging or working out at the gym, doing homework or studying in the university cafeteria, or while they are on transit, or countless other ways in which the music tends to be listened as some background accompaniment. So if you’re going to talk about real world, listening scenarios with vinyl, you have to also talk about that with digital. And digital has actually made it easier to make music more background and an accompaniment to other activities, which means all that wonderful accuracy is not necessarily getting the attention that makes it a really big deal!

So take a scenario of someone doing the dishes or cooking in the kitchen while their music plays on their smart speaker accompanying that activity. They are splitting their attention.

Compare that to someone with even a modest turntable set up, playing the record sitting to listen directly to the tracks. Who is going to be perceiving more about the music and recording? I suggest it was the dedicated listener. The small differences sonically between the digital source listened to in a kitchen, vs a record on a modest record player, will be swamped by the difference in attention paid to the recording/music.

This is why so many people who’ve gotten into vinyl report more satisfying listening, and musical experiences, paying attention and hearing things that they hadn’t heard when imbibing via digital streaming, which did not encourage such direct attention. (None of that means that the same amount of satisfaction can’t be gotten from digital, of course to anybody who dedicates they’re listening to digital! The point is we have to look at how people are actually listening and how that affects the experience).



You are in no position to tell anybody how into the music or not they are. Presumptions based on their audio equipment included.
It’s just as easy to point out that anybody spending as much time on an audio gear forum as we do isn’t “all about the music.” And has an audio gear fetish.


This is yet again audiophile virtue signalling and a type of vanity:

“ We all know that the highest virtue is to be All About The Music, so I’ll construct an argument to justify my own choice which implies I am in that virtuous category, and Those Other Audiophiles are stuck in a cycle of gear, fetish and obsession that has nothing to do with music.”


Again, nobody’s in a position to tell anybody else what to do to be fully into the music.
My choice is no better than yours, and yours no better than mine.
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I find aspects of this post interesting as well.

But... isn't your response all about preference as well? You say that Newman should not tell you what preference to have, but you are at the same time turning your own subjective opinions - and claims about what other people prefer - into a claim about what we all should accept.
So, yes, we can have "good" playback from vinyl. Even, very good. But your claims about differences being "subtle", "slight", that's all subjective. Noise in quiet passages, end of side distortion are audible when present. I hear it all now I've lived with digital for some years as my only source. And when I listen to vinyl rips (as I do to hear older recordings and such) I'm keenly aware that each vinyl system can sound different to the last. And I expect the majority of non-audiophiles would agree with this. Obviously, if we start from your personal preference, we can arrive at your personal preference. But that's no more an objective or transferrable choice than sighted subjective listening to choose hardware.

Now, you may claim that you are in fact only putting this forward as your personal preference, but you still repeatedly put forward arguments in your posts about what other people will also prefer, and so you are elevating your arguments beyond that.

The arguments about "how people listen" are relevant to why some people choose vinyl. We went through all of that here months ago. But really... vinyl is better because of how people use music? Firstly, I certainly listen to entire albums when streaming. And when vinyl was my main thing, I could also go and cue up a different track, or take an LP off and start listening to another after a minute or so if I'd made an obviously wrong choice of what to play. This stuff is really format agnostic.

If vinyl disappeared tomorrow, completely and utterly, people would still listen to whole albums that they like or understand as whole albums. These people who can only listen to vinyl today, if they are indeed "into the music", will still listen intently to whole albums and find ways to do so, if they are indeed "into the music". The way it gets described by some people, they are actually doing some kind of endurance test to listen to a whole twenty minutes at one time. Into the music, or just trying to make out that they are in some way superior for lasting that long? Your wife sounds much more into music to me.

As an aside, our dance classes are accompanied by MP3 files played through a Bose smart speaker, and you don't get much more into the music than when dancing. You get the most important stuff about the music from that setup, as well.

I'm not going to accept that vinyl is superior or a correct choice because some people listen in different ways to music. Believe it or not, among the vast majority of people who listen to digital, there will be way more people "listening to entire albums" than the entire number of people listening regularly to vinyl.

I'm not going to accept that because you can ignore the problems in vinyl playback, everybody else can or should. The simple fact that some of us argue hard against you on that matter tells me that is not the case.

I'm happy to agree that your personal preference is correct for you, and that others may share that preference. I still believe that a system with accurate electronics is the most likely thing to work for someone seeking high fidelity audio, and that means digital playback is our starting point. The starting point and where someone finds a personal preference, are two different things, of course.
 
Galliardist said:
I find aspects of this post interesting as well.

But... isn't your response all about preference as well? You say that Newman should not tell you what preference to have, but you are at the same time turning your own subjective opinions - and claims about what other people prefer - into a claim about what we all should accept.
So, yes, we can have "good" playback from vinyl. Even, very good. But your claims about differences being "subtle", "slight", that's all subjective. Noise in quiet passages, end of side distortion are audible when present. I hear it all now I've lived with digital for some years as my only source. And when I listen to vinyl rips (as I do to hear older recordings and such) I'm keenly aware that each vinyl system can sound different to the last. And I expect the majority of non-audiophiles would agree with this. Obviously, if we start from your personal preference, we can arrive at your personal preference. But that's no more an objective or transferrable choice than sighted subjective listening to choose hardware.

Now, you may claim that you are in fact only putting this forward as your personal preference, but you still repeatedly put forward arguments in your posts about what other people will also prefer, and so you are elevating your arguments beyond that.

The arguments about "how people listen" are relevant to why some people choose vinyl. We went through all of that here months ago. But really... vinyl is better because of how people use music? Firstly, I certainly listen to entire albums when streaming. And when vinyl was my main thing, I could also go and cue up a different track, or take an LP off and start listening to another after a minute or so if I'd made an obviously wrong choice of what to play. This stuff is really format agnostic.

If vinyl disappeared tomorrow, completely and utterly, people would still listen to whole albums that they like or understand as whole albums. These people who can only listen to vinyl today, if they are indeed "into the music", will still listen intently to whole albums and find ways to do so, if they are indeed "into the music". The way it gets described by some people, they are actually doing some kind of endurance test to listen to a whole twenty minutes at one time. Into the music, or just trying to make out that they are in some way superior for lasting that long? Your wife sounds much more into music to me.

As an aside, our dance classes are accompanied by MP3 files played through a Bose smart speaker, and you don't get much more into the music than when dancing. You get the most important stuff about the music from that setup, as well.

I'm not going to accept that vinyl is superior or a correct choice because some people listen in different ways to music. Believe it or not, among the vast majority of people who listen to digital, there will be way more people "listening to entire albums" than the entire number of people listening regularly to vinyl.

I'm not going to accept that because you can ignore the problems in vinyl playback, everybody else can or should. The simple fact that some of us argue hard against you on that matter tells me that is not the case.

I'm happy to agree that your personal preference is correct for you, and that others may share that preference. I still believe that a system with accurate electronics is the most likely thing to work for someone seeking high fidelity audio, and that means digital playback is our starting point. The starting point and where someone finds a personal preference, are two different things, of course.
Click to expand...
I've found it easier to listen to the music of my choice - Classical - via CDs because of the lack of interruptions from the format. These interruptions can include splitting up a long movement between two sides (every single 1 disc LP of Beethoven's 9th), the usual pops and crackles and the audible wow of off-center records. None of those things apply to any of my CDs. And when I listen to my CDs, I almost always listen to the entire CD without interruption.
 
Robin L said:
I've found it easier to listen to the music of my choice - Classical - via CDs because of the lack of interruptions from the format. These interruptions can include splitting up a long movement between two sides (every single 1 disc LP of Beethoven's 9th), the usual pops and crackles and the audible wow of off-center records. None of those things apply to any of my CDs. And when I listen to my CDs, I almost always listen to the entire CD without interruption.
Click to expand...
Even less so for my streamer. I was late to the streaming thing, but I don't think I have listened to a single CD since I did.
 
killdozzer said:
I disagree completely and think you're missing the point of his music. There's a perfect alignment between his lyrics, messages and his singing and music. Since I've mentioned Pavarotti I'll use him as an example; Pavarotti can't sing Subterranean Homesick Blues, Mr. Tambourine Man, Billy 4 or Shelter From The Storm. It's like saying Tom Waits would've never gotten admitted in the Milan Scala Choir. Who gives a f? Tom Waits was put on this earth to sing Chocolate Jesus and not prance around at the opera.

But that's the problem with one's expectations not with the crooning. Crooning fits some messages just like distortion fits Heavy Metal. The right message with the right style. It's just that there is a considerable number of stuck-up high-brows who rush to flaunt their knowledge about solfeggio.

Incidentally, that's why that Nirvana idiot killed him self. He felt like a failure because corporate goons still in monkey suits and a neck tie would go straight from the office after a long day of "hard outsourcing" down to a Nirvana concert to have a blast. So he said his message didn't get through. While the real problem was that they made cute little summer hits, schalgers that never bothered anyone. It was the wrong aesthetic for the message.

There are no corporate goons at Bauhaus or Einsturzende Nebauten.
Click to expand...
While I find Pavarotti tolerable when he steps out of with some stuff away from OPERA and I liked Freddy Mercury, Opera or not, here we have both the Spoleto Festival (of which I have attended 2 events in it's entire USA existence (only because others invited me).
We also, in recent years, have an International Blues Festival (for which, I have sadly, so far not been able to attend an event of).
Go see Pavarotti (in his Prime)? Probably.
Go see Dylan (in his Prime)? ONLY if I was single and it was an open field event, yes due to the single opportunities. Otherwise, No, not ever.
Would I go see Tom Waits (in his Prime)? Hell yes! Not in his Prime? Still Hell Yes.
Go see Frank Sinatra in his Prime? Hell Yes.
Go see Kid Rock? Prime or not? Yep!
Nirvana, at their peak (or not)? ZERO interest!
So, it's a matter of opinion.
Here's mine:
 
EJ3 said:
You'll please note that, having been outside of the United States from 2001-2018, that I don't know much about him, either (nor care).
I actually know more about Bob Dylan.
Here is one 5:10 clip from C-SPAN (from OBAMA & contains all I know about Obama):
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???
 
If this site really has placed its faith in measurements only, which still remains the basis of all physics, those of vinyl (and to a lesser extent those of analog magnetic tapes - except perhaps VHS hifi) are beyond dispute.
 
It seems to last, even this summer. A flea market not far from where I live:

Sweden's summeriest flea market" celebrates 10 years - trendy with LPs

A short video clip in which a young girl buys vinyl, with the argument: It's a different feeling listening to vinyl versus digital. We've heard that before, and well that argument in itself also applies to us older HiFi farts who sometimes listen to vinyl as well. :) It's just a subjective experience, a feeling, nostalgia perhaps?

We don't listen to vinyl, for the sake of sound quality (possible exception in that case uncompressed vinyl VS. insanely compressed streamed).
Vinyl records and record players that cost batshit crazy lot of money versus unlimited supply of streamed music at low cost together with a phone with a $19 usb dongle with better sound quality. Despite that, the craze for vinyl does not seem to be abating. :oops: :)

I was very lucky when I found this record.
Screenshot_2024-08-05_150738.jpg

The record she is holding in the picture is: Queens A Day At The Races
Price at that flea market, $24 (SEK 250). That in itself is a good price, if it is in good condition.:)

 
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DanielT said:
It seems to last, even this summer. A flea market not far from where I live:

Sweden's summeriest flea market" celebrates 10 years - trendy with LPs

A short video clip in which a young girl buys vinyl, with the argument why: It's a different feeling listening to vinyl versus digital. We've heard that before, and well that argument in itself also applies to us older HiFi farts who sometimes listen to vinyl as well. :) It's just a subjective experience, a feeling, nostalgia perhaps?

We don't listen to vinyl, for the sake of sound quality (possible exception in that case uncompressed vinyl VS. insanely compressed streamed).
Vinyl records and record players that cost batshit crazy lot of money versus unlimited supply of streamed music at low cost together with a phone with a $19 usb dongle with better sound quality. Despite that, the craze for vinyl does not seem to be abating. :oops: :)
View attachment 384781
The record she is holding in the picture is: Queens A Day At The Races
Price at that flea market, $24 (SEK 250). That in itself is a good price, if it is in good condition.:)

Click to expand...
I remember going to Amoeba Berkeley in the 1990s, when LPs were theoretically a dead medium. That record would have sold for about $6. Plenty of stores with high-end LP players at the time, btw.
 
with 400 pages of responses, i am sure everything under the sun has already been said. but i grew up in the 70s and just never stopped listening to record albums. it has been what music was "supposed to sound like" for my entire life. mostly i stuck with LPs because CDs were too expensive for me, and at the time 80s-90s records could be find for as little as a dime apiece.

now i would say that the sound of digital is certainly superior-- i thought the same thing when CDs hit in the late-80s. but i like the experience of dedicating time, sitting in one spot and listening attentively that LPs foster. listening via streaming feels phony to me. i'm sure it's just a function of my age, but if something is important to me i enjoy having the LP.

i would be interested to see studies which map how people listen for each medium-- do they notice different things, are different brain areas being accessed, etc.
 
daftcombo said:
Some recordspressed on vinyl are still not available digitally, and never will be except in the form of vinyl rip.
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it's true! some of my favorite albums by Nic Jones are only available as original pressings because of a battle over who owns the rights!
 
DWI said:
There seems to be a massive generalisation digital vs. analogue and comments about kids that only seem to suggest those people don't have kids.

I have two 20-something kids, one only ever uses Spotify, the other only plays vinyl at his home and streams from his phone when out. The nice thing is that vinyl is still a minority sport and hopefully will remain that way. It is clearly commercially viable, it gives people pleasure and that's all you need.

Lower resolution and distortion? I can't say my vinyl son gives that a moment's thought when he's listening to records and frankly I prefer listening to records as well.

There is a regular comment outside of the ASR walls that ASR is all about equipment whereas for most audio users it's primarily about music. If it sounds good enough, then that's fine. That's certainly my experience with all the music lovers I know, and my kids friends. Chasing measurements is absolutely fine, if that rocks your boat, but for the vast majority of people audio measurements are meaningless and crashingly boring. That's why they go and listen to stuff in stores and read non-technical articles in WHF or online to make their audio decisions.

It is often suggested that the non-technical should learn more about the technical side to make more informed hifi decisions. Well, if my son's any example, he's just not interested and still uses some of the old vintage kit he got for pennies when he was 15. Like many people, his turntable is a Rega P3. It's not like he's incapable of learning more, he actually has an engineering degree and works for a company that makes loudspeakers.

As far as CDs are concerned, just forget it. No one's really interested.
Click to expand...
i bet CDs will come back though-- it has been my experience that literally everything does.
 
Blake Klondike said:
i bet CDs will come back though-- it has been my experience that literally everything does.
Click to expand...
You would think, but there really was a glut of CDs during their heyday in the 1990s. I was employed at a Classical CD store at the time - even then, the Cafe side of the operation made more money. There was so much repetition of repertoire, part of the reason early music specialists were recording standard repertoire on original instruments at extreme tempos, sans vibrato. And I also recorded music using a DAT recorder and some fine Neumann microphones back then, mostly at concerts but also at something like 15 sessions for CDs.

This weekend I volunteered at the local library's bi-monthly book (and CD and DVD) sale. We got six big boxes of CDs just before the sale, and about 2/3 were classical. I was the only one who took advantage of the sale of classical CDs, taking home 25 CDs at $1 or 50 cents a pop. The rest of the classical titles wound up at a thrift store. One issue is the jewel cases that frequently break, another problem are the small covers and tiny type face in the booklets. But the biggest problem is the format's current lack of charisma compared to the big record covers and the sense of disconnection from the digital domain that LPs offer. Streaming, these days, is the better option for most people seeking a digital audio experience. And remember that it was classical music enthusiasts who led the charge for CDs in the beginning, back in the 1980s.
 
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