Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[HammersRocco]

To play in our cars and make mix tapes with all our favorites and none of the duds on the LPs.

 

[Count Dacula]

To a degree, I understand the fascination that young post-digital people have for vinyl. It is a counterpoint, or do-the-opposite, to thousands of downloaded MP3s in a bloated music library. You grab it, it's yours...and you can actually read the font printed on it.

Yes, well it might actually sound better than an MP3 too, that's something we should compare. Bottom line, you can have a vinyl system that sounds great, or a digital system that sounds like crap.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, well it might actually sound better than an MP3 too, that's something we should compare. Bottom line, you can have a vinyl system that sounds great, or a digital system that sounds like crap.

That seems unlikely in the bitrates MP3s are supplied in today.

Plus you can move from a digital system that sounds crap to a digital system that sounds great at much lower cost than setting up.a vinyl system that sounds great.

We need to move away from making the point that people who use vinyl (including me) are doing so for better sound quality. Good sound quality : sure. No detriments that bother me - or even ones I actually enjoy : possibly. Amazing considering the tech : absolutely... and so on.

But not better.

 

[rank]

The main problems with vinyl are absolutely unacceptable distortions due to the mastering, pressing and then playback system. Which also brings us a wide variety of crackles, the improbable background noise, the shortened bandwidth (often mono in the bass) and the weak dynamics.
It is even much worse than magnetic tape r2r or cassettes which only had hiss (and about 1% THD).
In addition, by spending more on the turntable itself (assuming you already own the maximum possble like an AT-LP120), tonarm, cartridge and phono input, you will not have better.
Except that you will possibly have the joy of hearing even more crackling if you opt for a non-conical stylus.

It is lamentable.
So it makes the cardboard sleeve to better read the liner notes (which you will consult once in your life) rather expensive.

 

[Galliardist]

The main problems with vinyl are absolutely unacceptable distortions due to the mastering, pressing and then playback system. Which also brings us a wide variety of crackles, the improbable background noise, the shortened bandwidth (often mono in the bass) and the weak dynamics.
It is even much worse than magnetic tape r2r or cassettes which only had hiss (and about 1% THD).
In addition, by spending more on the turntable itself (assuming you already own the maximum possble like an AT-LP120), tonarm, cartridge and phono input, you will not have better.
Except that you will possibly have the joy of hearing even more crackling if you opt for a non-conical stylus.

It is lamentable.
So it makes the cardboard sleeve to better read the liner notes (which you will consult once in your life) rather expensive.

Really? An AT-LP120 and a conical stylus?

For most of the lives of the older people here, vinyl records were what we had. If we wanted to listen on tape, we had to... record from LP for most music, or maybe from FM radio which has its own imperfections. As for your opinions on turntables and styli, no way. I listened to classical guitar and lute music on LP a fair bit, and the relatively small reductions in unweighted noise from a better turntable was worth the money to me. Similarly, I used our local record library, and a line contact stylus was a godsend to reduce noise particularly from discs that had been mistracked or damaged from those cheap conical styli. It has to be said - the "cheap is just as good" mantra from many here is at least fully justified by performance for some electronic products, but not in the same way when it comes to mechanical engineering.

Of course that record library, the fuss of playing records - to me the "ritual" was just something that got in the way of listening- proved just to be a precursor that makes me appreciate streaming so much.

Get to hear a good 1960s recording on a good 1960s system one day - it's still possible. In no way lamentable - it's very good. Compare with a black and white television from the same period. The people who developed the stereo LP, the studio tape machines used for the masters, and the domestic playback systems were proper, no nonsense engineers that got the best out of the technology of the time - and the precursors not of today's subjective nonsense, but of the engineers that have given us digital recording, modern high power and low distortion amplification, and the still improving speakers of today.

The LP was once a towering achievement. It gave my generation a good quality source to discover, enjoy and understand so much music that we would otherwise never have heard in such good quality.

Let's respect what was achieved, the genuine tradition of audio science and engineering, and champion the continuation of that tradition into the future.

 

[rank]

I understood this site was about measurements, not misplaced nostalgia. Records wear out and scratch even more, and the high notes disappear. Do you realize what you are writing? Respect ?! OMG !

 

[antcollinet]

I understood this site was about measurements,

Preference is allowed here - even when the measurements are worse. There is no mandate that we must all listen to the absolute technical best gear there is. We just like to help people to know what it is they are listening to.

We listen to music for the emotions it invokes. Nostalgia can be (in fact, often is) one of those.

 

[HammersRocco]

I understood this site was about measurements, not misplaced nostalgia. Records wear out and scratch even more, and the high notes disappear. Do you realize what you are writing? Respect ?! OMG !

<SARCASM>
OH MY GOD! I DID NOT KNOW THAT ? REALLY? THEY SCRATCH? VINYL HAS DIFFERENT SPECS THAN DIGITAL? SHEESUS!!!!

DID NOT KNOW THAT!

THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!

YOUR WISDOM IS ILLUMINATING! YOU TECHNICAL EXPERTISE HAS NO EQUAL. I AM IN AWE.
</SARCASM>

Don't be a "master of the obvious" please. You seem to be aware you are in ASR. Know who you are writing to. Again, key word is preference.

 

[Robin L]

I understood this site was about measurements, not misplaced nostalgia. Records wear out and scratch even more, and the high notes disappear. Do you realize what you are writing? Respect ?! OMG !

Right now, I'm using first rate (albeit cheap) digital gear to listen to some 74-year-old recordings. The point isn't SOTA sound, it's about getting the best results with the recordings that are available. If someone has a large collection of LPs, we can point them in the direction of the best way to play those records. But we're not here to tell them they're wrong to be playing records.

 

[Platypus20]

I own a AT-LP120, I feel it about the cheapest you can go to get a good solid workable turntable, but its hardy SOTA

 

[IPunchCholla]

I own a AT-LP120, I feel it about the cheapest you can go to get a good solid workable turntable, but its hardy SOTA

Almost any Technics DD from the 80s in decent working condition will deliver excellent sound. Mine was $80. You’re probably better off paying a bit more for a good phono pre-amp than you are spending the equivalent on the turntable itself. With the Waxwing, you gan get truly excellent sound for <$600. If you go through a computer, you get excellent sound without the Waxwing. Good vinyl reproduction (as in it takes about 10 blind A/Bs to distinguish from 24/48 streaming) can be had pretty inexpensively.

 

[Platypus20]

What I’ve read about the Waxwing, it seems interesting, but I won’t use BT or a computer with my stereos, I’ll have to live with my Schiit Skoll.

 

[antcollinet]

What I’ve read about the Waxwing, it seems interesting, but I won’t use BT or a computer with my stereos, I’ll have to live with my Schiit Skoll.

Waxwing doesn't use bluetooth for audio.

It uses it to connect to your phone for control of the settings from the app - that is all.

 

[Leporello]

I own a AT-LP120, I feel it about the cheapest you can go to get a good solid workable turntable, but its hardy SOTA

Has there ever been a proper bias controlled blind test between a decent basic turntable vs something considered SOTA using the same cartridge? Could be interesting ,

 

[Platypus20]

Waxwing doesn't use bluetooth for audio.

It uses it to connect to your phone for control of the settings from the app - that is all.

BT has been a curse to me, my BT keyboard drive my TV and DVR crazy, drops out my streamer. I shut it off on all of my devices

 

[antcollinet]

BT has been a curse to me, my BT keyboard drive my TV and DVR crazy, drops out my streamer. I shut it off on all of my devices

Weird.

To have bluetooth interfere with one device would be uncanny. To have 2 devices so impacted - vanishingly improbable. Three? I'd be suspecting a poltergeist before bluetooth. I mean - even airlines allow bluetooth now. Yet even with hundreds of bluetooth devices all operating at once on each flight: all the planes stay up in the sky.

I assume you've also banned wifi from your property. That puts out *way* more rf energy than any bluetooth device. Same with your cell phone. And your microwave oven - forget about it!

EDIT - PS If that comes accross as harsh - I'm sorry. I'm two double whiskeys down by now. I should know better than to post whilst drinking.
PPS and I like your platypus.

 

[EJ3]

Weird.

To have bluetooth interfere with one device would be uncanny. To have 2 devices so impacted - vanishingly improbable. Three? I'd be suspecting a poltergeist before bluetooth. I mean - even airlines allow bluetooth now. Yet even with hundreds of bluetooth devices all operating at once on each flight: all the planes stay up in the sky.

I assume you've also banned wifi from your property. That puts out *way* more rf energy than any bluetooth device. Same with your cell phone. And your microwave oven - forget about it!

Blutooth: "someone found a way to patent and trademark a walkie talkie".
The microwave can be annoying to the WiFi IF they are within 10 feet of each other.
And I have an exceptionally well custom antenna WiFi, which can (if each antenna is mounted on the top of a telephone pole) transceiver over a 60 mile range with 1 watt of RF at each end. (in the dessert or out to a boat in the ocean). It's great for on a 10.000 acre farm.
So maybe I get the microwave better than most. But keep them more than 10 feet apart when operating the microwave, it's not an issue.

 

[atmasphere]

As @atmasphere points out a direct cut acetate can be objectively better than any analog tape recording machine.

The other big "degradation" happens because it can be decades from when the master / cutting tapes were originally created and the transfer to digital took place. Tapes are perishable to a lesser or greater degree depending on formulation, storage, use, and abuse.

To be clear a tape machine might use tape formulated on acetate while an LP mastering lathe would use a lacquer.

Rubbish!

The changes needed to make a master stamper for LP are not subtle at all. I don't know that direct cut acetate was better than any analog tape, especially if one considers 15 i.p.s. tape. It might be comparable. OTOH, how many direct to disc recordings are there? Not even 1%.

I recorded many albums off of FM radio when they would play whole albums. They were all things considered better than LP almost always. Broadcast RTR even copied to broadcast tape cartridges was better than the total degradation over an LP format. Revisionist history is a b*tch. Unless someone can provide good data the idea they kept the "most precious" vinyl masters doesn't even make any sense.

Your anecdote aside, which is meaningless, its very common to cut an LP from a master tape that has no alterations whatsoever. We did it all the time. On top of that if presented with a digital master we also asked the producer if he had a master without all the DSP other than normalization.

There seem to be two stages of remastering to get from final studio master tape to what is actually in the grooves of an LP:-

- Firstly, create a vinyl master tape from the studio master tape, with whatever changes deemed fit. As well as the changes, this adds one more generation of copy to an already nth-generation tape.

- Secondly, 'ride' the gain and compression controls of the cutting lathe, making on-the-fly adjustments by ear. This is changing dynamic compression among other things, on a moment-by-moment basis. Not good! Plus the RIAA EQ is applied at this point, which has several versions and the owner usually has no clue which version was used, and the record owner's reverse-RIAA circuit often doesn't result in flat output.

Sorry but this doesn't happen! Again, the studio master tape is usually the same as the LP master. Hence 'cut from the master tape' you see on so many high quality LPs. Honestly I don't know how idiotic stories like this get started. Sometimes you gain ride a cutter system but if you have it set up right you don't since the computer takes care of the advance velocity. This is associated with the 'digital preview head'

I agree that this is a question that's not easy to answer in a definitive, blanket way.

However, with all respect, atmasphere's posts here are invariably anecdotal in nature. The pattern is quite clear and repeated: the posts start with a blanket factual claim, and the evidence usually turns out to be what he did or saw in this or that situation. More than once his posts have even stated explicitly that what he did was in his opinion a best practice that was not consistently followed by others in the industry.

So to my eyes, most of atmasphere's posts are evidence for what he has done, and what he thinks or wishes would be (or would have been) industry standard practice, but were not.

So - if I can do it, that means others can't or won't?? Do you realize how silly this sounds? My setup was nothing special other than the fact that I had such a setup while those that talk anecdotal stuff about LP mastering don't and might never have even seen such a machine in person. Sounds a bit ridiculous when you think about it. Hands on still means something.

 

[Platypus20]

Weird.

To have bluetooth interfere with one device would be uncanny. To have 2 devices so impacted - vanishingly improbable. Three? I'd be suspecting a poltergeist before bluetooth. I mean - even airlines allow bluetooth now. Yet even with hundreds of bluetooth devices all operating at once on each flight: all the planes stay up in the sky.

I assume you've also banned wifi from your property. That puts out *way* more rf energy than any bluetooth device. Same with your cell phone. And your microwave oven - forget about it!

EDIT - PS If that comes accross as harsh - I'm sorry. I'm two double whiskeys down by now. I should know better than to post whilst drinking.
PPS and I like your platypus.

Was not offended at all, and yes the microwave can also interrupt the Wi-Fi signal at times.

Not a big fan of computers, for the last 10-15 years at work, I installed programmed and serviced computer based control systems on boilers, ventilation equipment and water filtration systems, from multiple manufacturers. The only true winner to all of that was my bosses bank account. They did not improve the operation, did not save them money, they just complicated things. MS updates caused many issues, like loosing parameters setting, random shut downs. Repairs went from minutes or a few hours to many hours, sometimes days, needing laptops to find the problem, not fix it. Using multiple sensors, modems, routers, servos and actuators. All so some young engineer could see the operation on a cell phone or their desk monitors. I had one customer that went from one or two service calls a year, to two or three service calls a month. Many of them were extremely sorry, they gone to the control systems in the long run.

The washing machine I just bought has a data link connection, for updates to the micro-processor, insane. There are many uses for computers, but not everything needs them. The last thing I want is anything to do with anything Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, was involved in near my stereo.

 

[EJ3]

To be clear a tape machine might use tape formulated on acetate while an LP mastering lathe would use a lacquer.

Your anecdote aside, which is meaningless, its very common to cut an LP from a master tape that has no alterations whatsoever. We did it all the time. On top of that if presented with a digital master we also asked the producer if he had a master without all the DSP other than normalization.

Sorry but this doesn't happen! Again, the studio master tape is usually the same as the LP master. Hence 'cut from the master tape' you see on so many high quality LPs. Honestly I don't know how idiotic stories like this get started. Sometimes you gain ride a cutter system but if you have it set up right you don't since the computer takes care of the advance velocity. This is associated with the 'digital preview head'

So - if I can do it, that means others can't or won't?? Do you realize how silly this sounds? My setup was nothing special other than the fact that I had such a setup while those that talk anecdotal stuff about LP mastering don't and might never have even seen such a machine in person. Sounds a bit ridiculous when you think about it. Hands on still means something.

IMHO: There is no degree as good as "EMPIRICAL KNOWLEGE". Now, if you have both, will likely be helpful, as "DEGREES" show that you have perseverance and that perseverance MAY get you to attack the problem from a different angle and MAY get you to the correct answer or way of doing something.