Vinyl Record Noise Floor - A Call For Measurements

[Palmer]

Methinks the question is somewhat wrong, it should be the search for the best possible noise floor of a vinyl record - under the absolute best circumstances.

I do remember this sort of endeavor from the master tape time, way back in the day. But there's a gazillion vinyl records still out there, from a great number of pressing plants.

Add to that the influence of an also great number of cutting facilities, not to mention the masters that were used, there are a great number of factors compared to the tape noise floor research.

Therefore even if one were to arrive at some figures of today's vinyl releases, it would be a gargantuan effort to come up with verifiable numbers for the medium itself since, say back to the 60ies.

So to me this is at best an approach to come to some sort of believable result for vinyl record noise floor on average, of recent vinyl records released.

 

[Thomas_A]

He means vibrational energy being dumped down the cantilever and into the stylus causing it to jiggle and lose and regain contact with the groove wall.

That sounds like mistracking?

Vinyl noise consist of basically two things; friction between stylus and groove and LF noise due to resonance (and as all know noise follows the RIAA curve; it is just not possible to cut bass with high amplitudes and same SNR as at 1 kHz...)

- Friction (and noise) can be lowered by wet play or adding a lubricant, shown by several experiments at VE and other places. For lowest noise during dry play means clean records and a clean stylus, and a good symmetric and polished stylus. Grooves follows the same pattern; smooth/rough vinyl surface affects noise (good quality pressing needed). I have never heard or seen measurements, but noise of lacquers is said to be very, very low.
- LF noise is mainly affected by system arm/cart resonance, excited by warps. It also causes FM flutter, and may add additional noise due to increased friction as the cantilever vibrates. Flat centered records and a damped resonance, which should not be too low, helps.

What secrets the DS optical cartridge hides in terms of noise improvement would be interesting to know. Measurements needed...

 

[watchnerd]

That sounds like mistracking?

Vinyl noise consist of basically two things; friction between stylus and groove and LF noise due to resonance (and as all know noise follows the RIAA curve; it is just not possible to cut bass with high amplitudes and same SNR as at 1 kHz...)

- Friction (and noise) can be lowered by wet play or adding a lubricant, shown by several experiments at VE and other places. For lowest noise during dry play means clean records and a clean stylus, and a good symmetric and polished stylus. Grooves follows the same pattern; smooth/rough vinyl surface affects noise (good quality pressing needed). I have never heard or seen measurements, but noise of lacquers is said to be very, very low.
- LF noise is mainly affected by system arm/cart resonance, excited by warps. It also causes FM flutter, and may add additional noise due to increased friction as the cantilever vibrates. Flat centered records and a damped resonance, which should not be too low, helps.

What secrets the DS optical cartridge hides in terms of noise improvement would be interesting to know. Measurements needed...

He's differentiating from friction and just mis-tracking:

[NOTE: I'm not saying he's correct.]

 

[watchnerd]

Methinks the question is somewhat wrong, it should be the search for the best possible noise floor of a vinyl record - under the absolute best circumstances.

I do remember this sort of endeavor from the master tape time, way back in the day. But there's a gazillion vinyl records still out there, from a great number of pressing plants.

Add to that the influence of an also great number of cutting facilities, not to mention the masters that were used, there are a great number of factors compared to the tape noise floor research.

Therefore even if one were to arrive at some figures of today's vinyl releases, it would be a gargantuan effort to come up with verifiable numbers for the medium itself since, say back to the 60ies.

So to me this is at best an approach to come to some sort of believable result for vinyl record noise floor on average, of recent vinyl records released.

I have many records where the analog tape hiss is the noise floor, not the groove noise.

Whereas with digital recordings, it's always the groove noise.

 

[Palmer]

I have many records where the analog tape hiss is the noise floor, not the groove noise.

Whereas with digital recordings, it's always the groove noise.

To which I agree, it is but one aspect to remove though - from analyzing the average noise floor, much less the best achievable.
My point was to put a light onto the difficulty inherent in a quest to get to the "Vinyl Record Noise Floor", as per the OP...

 

[Bland_username42069]

It would be interesting to see measurements done with some of the new optical cartridges from DS audio.

One of the features that it seems just about every single person reports is a significant reduction in background record noise.

My friend acquired and now uses a DS audio cartridge and he reports the same. (he often has more than one turntable and cartridge to compare back to back.)

When I’ve listened at his place with the DS audio cartridge, background record noise seems extremely quiet.

There are measurements here done by HiFi news

https://ds-audio-w.biz/cms/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/HFN-Oct-DS-Audio-DS-E3_Reprint-LOW.pdf

But to my very untechnical eye the cartridge looks a complete mess

 

[watchnerd]

To which I agree, it is but one aspect to remove though - from analyzing the average noise floor, much less the best achievable.
My point was to put a light onto the difficulty inherent in a quest to get to the "Vinyl Record Noise Floor", as per the OP...

I think it answer the boundaries of the question, though.

For analog recordings, a really good pressing can have audible tape hiss on a vintage analog recording.

That would be -60 to -66 DB (A weighted), pre-Dolby A noise reduction or DBX.

So it's at least -60 dB (10 bits) on good pressings.

 

[watchnerd]

There are measurements here done by HiFi news

https://ds-audio-w.biz/cms/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/HFN-Oct-DS-Audio-DS-E3_Reprint-LOW.pdf

But to my very untechnical eye the cartridge looks a complete mess

+6.8 dB over 10 kHz, Sweet Christmas.....

 

[Palmer]

I think it answer the boundaries of the question, though.

For analog recordings, a really good pressing can have audible tape hiss on a vintage analog recording.

That would be -60 to -66 DB (A weighted), pre-Dolby A noise reduction or DBX.

So it's at least -60 dB (10 bits) on good pressings.

As far as I remember that sounds about right - Though I have two consumer 1/4 inch tape decks, I haven't had a 1/2 inch ATR 100 around, much less good data on hand...

 

[watchnerd]

As far as I remember that sounds about right - Though I have two consumer 1/4 inch tape decks, I haven't had a 1/2 inch ATR 100 around, much less good data on hand...

I have 2 Revox PR-99 MKII and 1 Studer A807.

I'm going from memory from the technical manuals.

 

[Bland_username42069]

+6.8 dB over 10 kHz, Sweet Christmas.....

Peter Lederman’s strain gage doesn’t look great either. The only “esoteric” cartridge I’ve seen that looks interesting is Phaedrus audios where they put an amplifier in the body of the cartridge itself.

Soundsmith SG/SG-230 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report As discussed the L/R signals from Soundsmith's pick-up are derived from variations in the impedance of its internal strain gauges, so the ~500mV output refers to its partnering SG-230 bridge/preamp. The 1.2dB channel imbalance remains a function of the cartridge as does distortion –...

www.hifinews.com

 

[watchnerd]

Peter Lederman’s strain gage doesn’t look great either. The only “esoteric” cartridge I’ve seen that looks interesting is Phaedrus audios where they put an amplifier in the body of the cartridge itself.

Soundsmith SG/SG-230 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report As discussed the L/R signals from Soundsmith's pick-up are derived from variations in the impedance of its internal strain gauges, so the ~500mV output refers to its partnering SG-230 bridge/preamp. The 1.2dB channel imbalance remains a function of the cartridge as does distortion –...

www.hifinews.com

Just slap some DSP EQ on it.

 

[MattHooper]

That sounds like mistracking?

Vinyl noise consist of basically two things; friction between stylus and groove and LF noise due to resonance (and as all know noise follows the RIAA curve; it is just not possible to cut bass with high amplitudes and same SNR as at 1 kHz...)

- Friction (and noise) can be lowered by wet play or adding a lubricant, shown by several experiments at VE and other places. For lowest noise during dry play means clean records and a clean stylus, and a good symmetric and polished stylus. Grooves follows the same pattern; smooth/rough vinyl surface affects noise (good quality pressing needed). I have never heard or seen measurements, but noise of lacquers is said to be very, very low.
- LF noise is mainly affected by system arm/cart resonance, excited by warps. It also causes FM flutter, and may add additional noise due to increased friction as the cantilever vibrates. Flat centered records and a damped resonance, which should not be too low, helps.

What secrets the DS optical cartridge hides in terms of noise improvement would be interesting to know. Measurements needed...

Although vinyl playback can have enough frequency response deviations to suggest that it doesn’t really have a general “ sound,” if I have found any commonality…. at least in my experience…. It’s that vinyl playback seems to have an added bit of what I call “ texture” to the sound. So directly compared to digital counterparts, the digital always sounds to one degree or another cleaner. Relative to the digital vinyl tends to have a slight grain or distortion overlaying, the sound reduction in a slight thickening and textural overlay. Very similar to what some people attribute to tube amp distortion in some ways.

I actually like it, because at least in my system and some others, I’ve heard it seems to add a slight bit of density and presence.

If this is indeed due to distortions in vinyl playback as I presume, a layman’s hunch has me imagining that the sheer mechanical process of scraping the music down into vinyl and then back off with a needle is imprecise enough to add this type of distortion. For instance they can only be so much precision in terms of the wiggling needle picking up the sound waves in the groove, and so may be a little extra errant vibrations here and there it could be adding to it? And/or any other concatenation of distortions that are added in the process of creating vinyl records.

Thoughts?

 

[watchnerd]

Although vinyl playback can have enough frequency response deviations to suggest that it doesn’t really have a general “ sound,” if I have found any commonality…. at least in my experience…. It’s that vinyl playback seems to have an added bit of what I call “ texture” to the sound. So directly compared to digital counterparts, the digital always sounds to one degree or another cleaner. Relative to the digital vinyl tends to have a slight grain or distortion overlaying, the sound reduction in a slight thickening and textural overlay. Very similar to what some people attribute to tube amp distortion in some ways.

I actually like it, because at least in my system and some others, I’ve heard it seems to add a slight bit of density and presence.

If this is indeed due to distortions in vinyl playback as I presume, a layman’s hunch has me imagining that the sheer mechanical process of scraping the music down into vinyl and then back off with a needle is imprecise enough to add this type of distortion. For instance they can only be so much precision in terms of the wiggling needle picking up the sound waves in the groove, and so may be a little extra errant vibrations here and there it could be adding to it? And/or any other concatenation of distortions that are added in the process of creating vinyl records.

Thoughts?

I think some of this is texture is due to reverb effects added by acoustic feedback from speakers and room.

There is a noticeable difference in sound of vinyl rips I've made with speakers on vs muted during the ripping.

 

[Audiofire]

Thoughts?

The distortion is added indeed, but it is a lack of clarity in the sound that seems dull to me.

 

[MattHooper]

I think some of this is texture is due to reverb effects added by acoustic feedback from speakers and room.

There is a noticeable difference in sound of vinyl rips I've made with speakers on vs muted during the ripping.

Interesting! I’ve seen somebody else mention that before too.

In my case, I doubt that’s an issue since my turntable is in an entirely different room down the hallway from my listening room. And I usually don’t listen very loud.

 

[MattHooper]

The distortion is added indeed, but it is a lack of clarity in the sound that seems dull to me.

Yes, I could see what you mean.
I certainly don’t hear my vinyl set up as dull, but in direct comparison I could see somebody thinking the vinyl was a bit more dull. Or they might as I do actually find it a little bit less dull. In comparison digital (in my system, and also in my friends high end system) sounds a little smoothed over to me with less presence.

 

[Audiofire]

In comparison digital (in my system, and also in my friends high end system) sounds a little smoothed over to me with less presence.

Seems as if (lack of) dynamic range could be the cause.

 

[Thomas_A]

Although vinyl playback can have enough frequency response deviations to suggest that it doesn’t really have a general “ sound,” if I have found any commonality…. at least in my experience…. It’s that vinyl playback seems to have an added bit of what I call “ texture” to the sound. So directly compared to digital counterparts, the digital always sounds to one degree or another cleaner. Relative to the digital vinyl tends to have a slight grain or distortion overlaying, the sound reduction in a slight thickening and textural overlay. Very similar to what some people attribute to tube amp distortion in some ways.

I actually like it, because at least in my system and some others, I’ve heard it seems to add a slight bit of density and presence.

If this is indeed due to distortions in vinyl playback as I presume, a layman’s hunch has me imagining that the sheer mechanical process of scraping the music down into vinyl and then back off with a needle is imprecise enough to add this type of distortion. For instance they can only be so much precision in terms of the wiggling needle picking up the sound waves in the groove, and so may be a little extra errant vibrations here and there it could be adding to it? And/or any other concatenation of distortions that are added in the process of creating vinyl records.

Thoughts?

My take is that digital has more detail, dynamics and more of everything top and bottom of the frequency spectrum especially inner tracks. That’s the most obvious to me. 45 RPM fairs a bit better. And then of course noise that can be disturbing on some pressings and using headphones. But vinyl with good pressings and good playback is equally enjoyable IMO.

 

[dualazmak]

Disregarding the vinyl noise floor, this is my Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 with the phono pre connected:

View attachment 448936

And this is with the cables of the phono pre removed:

View attachment 448938

So my point is, a lot of phono pres will have some noise already.

For my "affordable" Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifer, I had almost the same issue (rather worse) you have observed, and I could successfully DIY-suppress (about -6 dB) the inaudible EMF (electro-magnetic field) interference noise as shared here #697 on my project thread.