Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Anton D]

The percentage that doesn't skip, click or wow, not to mention the percentage that doesn't display the sonic degradation of groove wear or IGD.

Not a scientific answer. Numbers, we require numbers, it's audio 'science,' remember. You're being a subjectivist.

 

[tmtomh]

Not a scientific answer. Numbers, we require numbers, it's audio 'science,' remember. You're being a subjectivist.

So your "non-snarky" question was actually a snarky question then?

 

[Sal1950]

Posting updates about the continued upward trajectory of vinyl sales in a thread devoted to discussing the Vinyl Renaissance is hardly off topic. More to the point, it has nothing to do with GATEKEEPING, in terms of suggesting this forum is only about investigating SOTA gear, and that one should admit they aren't an audiophile for enjoying vinyl.

The OP asked to explain it, because he saw it dumb.
Not as a platform to celibate folks gullibility in their purchases.

The percentage that doesn't skip, click or wow, not to mention the percentage that doesn't display the sonic degradation of groove wear or IGD.

Or surface noise, mono bass, rolled off freqency extremes, etc etc etc

 

[Axo1989]

^^^^^ IRONY ALERT….beep, beep, beep!
View attachment 325310View attachment 325312



View attachment 325316

To be honest, I hope we are all, or at least largely, gatekeepers to the principle of keeping audio science at the forefront of discussions on ASR.

cheers

Ok, too visually intrusive, a spell on my ignore list for anyone who posts ugly images/memes (nothing personal, I promise, see you in a while)

 

[Robin L]

Not a scientific answer. Numbers, we require numbers, it's audio 'science,' remember. You're being a subjectivist.

Not really, the number on the digital side approaches zero, on the analog side it does not.

 

[MattHooper]

When CDs first appeared, I was totally in the LP camp, in spite of being a classical music lover, therefore more likely to be attracted to the steadier pitch and silent backgrounds of CDs. Becoming one of those who no longer care for vinyl took time. I would say I can give accurate answers why there has been a limited resurgence in the sales of LPs without being on the vinyl bandwagon.

Less likely doesn't mean it's impossible

But as a general trend, the breeziest dismissals, seeing vinyl enthusiasm as silly at best, tends to come from those who themselves have no enthusiasm for vinyl (often the "I gave records up a long time ago for good reasons, so I can't see what all the fuss is about now..")

As I remember things Robin L (and correct me if I'm wrong), I seem to recall we first "met" in the Stereophile comments section where you were pretty negative about
the vinyl revival, and the discussion continued here on a somewhat contentious vinyl thread. It's been my impression that over time you softened your position and, personally, I've found your input to be very balanced on the whole thing.

Is that fair to say or am I remembering incorrectly?

 

[Anton D]

So your "non-snarky" question was actually a snarky question then?

He gave no scientific answer. Only subjective opination.

Same with Sal.

 

[Sal1950]

Do you guys wear white lab coats or neural nets while sitting in your listening chairs?

No a tin foil one.
Is this yours?

 

[restorer-john]

Not as a platform to celibate folks gullibility in their purchases.

Celebrate?

 

[Anton D]

No a tin foil one.
Is this yours?
View attachment 325324

Yours is tin foil?

That's a let down.

I was sure it would be woven Coors Light cans!

 

[levimax]

Non-snarky question: what percentage 'better' is digital than analog? They both give me great pleasure, but I don't sit around perseverating about "betterness" or this "audibly perfect" BS I see people mention.

Just going by the numbers, and just for noise, assuming a generous -60dB noise floor for an LP and a -96 dB noise floor for a CD that works out to digital being 36 dB quieter which is 398,107% quieter see https://calculator.academy/db-to-percentage-calculator/ . For distortion it is even worse for LP's. But for actual listening how much difference is there? In many cases not much. The fact that LP's measure orders of magnitude worse that CD's but can sound similar is interesting and scientifically investigating why and what is really important for "Hi-Fi" sound will lead you to understanding what matters and what doesn't.

 

[Timcognito]

No a tin foil one.
Is this yours?
View attachment 325324

This might be the only Elton John Record I would own. It can't be played.

 

[MattHooper]

The percentage that doesn't skip, click or wow, not to mention the percentage that doesn't display the sonic degradation of groove wear or IGD.

I'm not sure Anton's post was clear about what he was asking for. On one hand it seemed to be about the difference in subjective pleasure, on the other asking
for scientific quantification. Your reply seems like a start in answering the latter.

My position is that declarations about "how much better digital sounds than vinyl," in subjective terms, is very tricky, since it seems tied up with personal impressions and preferences (and impressions can even vary with the mood of the individual). One person may find a difference really significant, someone else may find it inconsequential. Someone allergic to any added artifacts may find a few hints of record noise during a track intolerable. I may not even notice it (or notice it, and not care, my overall enjoyment and assessment of the sound not impacted).

I think we can have both quantification of sonic differences, and descriptions of the actual differences in sound character. But the significance of those differences will tend to fall in to the subjective, and the personal.

 

[Robin L]

Less likely doesn't mean it's impossible

But as a general trend, the breeziest dismissals, seeing vinyl enthusiasm as silly at best, tends to come from those who themselves have no enthusiasm for vinyl (often the "I gave records up a long time ago for good reasons, so I can't see what all the fuss is about now..")

As I remember things Robin L (and correct me if I'm wrong), I seem to recall we first "met" in the Stereophile comments section where you were pretty negative about
the vinyl revival, and the discussion continued here on a somewhat contentious vinyl thread. It's been my impression that over time you softened your position and, personally, I've found your input to be very balanced on the whole thing.

Is that fair to say or am I remembering incorrectly?

Mr. Fremer managed to piss me off royally by choosing to ignore the obvious and berating me for no good reason. It was a delight to piss him off in return when he popped up here at ASR a while back. I've heard vinyl replay good enough to explain the attraction, but that is not enough for or even possible for me in my current situation. Only a few years ago I had 1,000 LPs and three turntables. But, as Bob Dylan sez, things have changed.

 

[MattHooper]

Mr. Fremer managed to piss me off royally by choosing to ignore the obvious and berating me for no good reason. It was a delight to piss him off in return when he popped up here at ASR a while back. I've heard vinyl replay good enough to explain the attraction, but that is not enough for or even possible for me in my current situation. Only a few years ago I had 1,000 LPs and three turntables. But, as Bob Dylan sez, things have changed.

Makes total sense, thanks!

 

[tmtomh]

He gave no scientific answer. Only subjective opination.

Same with Sal.

So is this supposed to be the part where I write, "There is no possible way to provide a quantitative answer to your question"? - so that you can respond, "Exactly"? I'm hoping that wasn't the idea, because that's really stupid. And made even stupider by the fact that you had to lie to get someone like @Robin L to even respond.

 

[Anton D]

Just going by the numbers, and just for noise, assuming a generous -60dB noise floor for an LP and a -96 dB noise floor for a CD that works out to digital being 36 dB quieter which is 398,107% quieter see https://calculator.academy/db-to-percentage-calculator/ . For distortion it is even worse for LP's. But for actual listening how much difference is there? In many cases not much. The fact that LP's measure orders of magnitude worse that CD's but can sound similar is interesting and scientifically investigating why and what is really important for "Hi-Fi" sound will lead you to understanding what matters and what doesn't.

Now were are talking!

398,107% 'better.'

And an even greater victory for distortion measurements.

Let's give that huge victory to the anti-vinyl canaries and they can relax, basking in the objective betterness of CD and be content.

(Your post is wonderful, worthy of wine, chit chat, and record playing in a convivial environment.)

 

[Sal1950]

As I remember things Robin L (and correct me if I'm wrong), I seem to recall we first "met" in the Stereophile comments section where you were pretty negative about
the vinyl revival, and the discussion continued here on a somewhat contentious vinyl thread. It's been my impression that over time you softened your position and, personally, I've found your input to be very balanced on the whole thing.

That's the big problem with the vinyl revival.
The folks here who have been around for years either dumped the PITA things for something better, or hung on for their own reasons, both perfectly fine.
But the "revival" is mostly new entries into HiFi world both young and old, all being suckered in by media, pop culture, hipsters, and all the rest. Every where they go they've read the Mikey Fremer BS line on the glorious sound of analog and vinyl, how digital sounds like a staircase, coarse and nasty, yada yada yada. They're being sold a pack of lies, and in the end what do/will they end up with, a lot of money wasted on 1960 level technology when they could have something so much better for their money to build their music reproduction world on.
Very sad.

 

[Anton D]

So is this supposed to be the part where I write, "There is no possible way to provide a quantitative answer to your question"? - so that you can respond, "Exactly"? I'm hoping that wasn't the idea, because that's really stupid.

Nope, someone provided the answer, almost 400,000% better for CD. An even greater margin of victory for distortion, as well.

Obviously quantifiable, it's audio science, after all.

 

[restorer-john]

Just going by the numbers, and just for noise, assuming a generous -60dB noise floor for an LP and a -96 dB noise floor for a CD that works out to digital being 36 dB quieter which is 398,107% quieter

36dB is a factor of 63 times.