.... but I can't be an anomaly can I - speakers 18yrs old sound great - why?

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

Greetings!

Thank you to All of You who helped. I took some time to hear the differences and fine tune my set up. I finally did it! I am so happy with what I am hearing - I listen to average of 50-70db max.

Room treatment...thank you I am accepting awards for pulling it off successfully.
Speaker set up - I am accepting awards for proper speaker placement - I have centre image and a soundstage - wow.

Sound - I am almost reluctant to state what I have incase it puts some into depression... I have a very inexpensive hifi system that most of whom I have spoken too at audio hifi stores mock and ridicule or try to embarrass me into spending more.

Diana Krall, Nora Jones, Eva Cassidy, Karen Carpenter, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Feetwood Mac... and so, sound fantastic to me - Yes I do have a musical ear - I hope - played piano and guitar as a teenager. My speakers and whole system sound really really good to be conservative....... this is concerning as for me to get the same sound now...is beyond my current budget unless I sell all my telescope gear.

Why do my 18 yr old speakers and 18 yr old integrated amp sound so neutral and musical and full - I have no complaints. I did not even think my system sounded so good until I got the speaker setup and room set up properly and the source is as good as I can get it to be - as good as recordings as I can find - CD. Most expensive speakers I auditioned have been 8000. None of them sounded better than what I have for 3x less. JBL L100 classic MK2 and Mofi source point 888 and KLM model 5, are just few that I demoed and was disappointed especially at their price point. I can't believe I cannot find anything better unless I hit the 10.000 mark which I cannot afford right now. Just for my own lack of ignorance can someone just tell me if tech was really that good back then and inexpensive compared to now?

Any knowledgeable people here who can put this to rest for me... I either have to spend X amount or just stay with what I have? and why are speaker so overpriced?

I am listing specs, not what I have as it can be offensive to some.
Speakers: 4 way towers. 40hz-40khz +/- 3dB

TRANSDUCERS
The transducers are the heart and soul of a loudspeaker. The design and selection of the transducers determines how accurately the speaker reproduces the original recording and how well it maintains that quality at any listening level, for any duration. Every transducer is designed to offer best-in-class performance by com- bining low distortion, improved sensitivity and neutral, sonically accurate reproduction.

WOOFER, MID-BASS AND MIDRANGE
The cone material for the Series is comprised of a special lightweight layer-pulp matrix with proprietary PolyPlasTM reinforcement material, which offers improved pistonic behavior throughout its operating bandwidth, and controlled cone breakup beyond its operating range.
The 10," 8" and 6.5" woofers feature rubber surrounds; high-temperature, oversized Kapton® voice coils; and HeatScapeTM motor structures, all proven transducer designs that work together to ensure exceptional sound and reliability.
The rubber surrounds provide consistency of frequency response characteristics, with the added benefit of structural stability across a wide range of environmental conditions.
Oversized voice coils with Kapton formers material offer structured stiffness without adding more mass to the voice coil, improving high-frequency response. In addition, since the material can withstand higher temperatures, power handling is improved.
The HeatScape motor structure envelops the voice coil with a large ceramic magnet and steel frame to protect the voice coil by dissipating heat away from it, further improving power handling and reliability and resulting in extremely low levels of harmonic distortion.
The 4" midrange transducer retains all the features of the woofers except for rubber surrounds, as additional internal damping is necessary to eliminate resonances in this application. A well-damped silk is used for the surround material.

HIGH FREQUENCY
The tweeter features a 3/4" titanium-laminate dome for a high stiffness-to-weight ratio, resulting in high sensitivity and fast transient response for accurate high-frequency reproduction. It also features a high-energy neodymium-magnet motor structure for a compact, lightweight, efficient design. The tweeter integrates with an Elliptical Oblate SpheroidalTM (EOS) waveguide, giving it smooth integration with the midrange and a wide, consistent listening window. The result is an incredibly wide stereo image across
a much larger listening area.

ULTRAHIGH FREQUENCY (UHF)
The Series features a new ultrahigh-frequency tweeter to reproduce sound in the 18kHz – 40kHz audio range. The transducer is high-passed and crossed-over smoothly with the upper end of the traditional tweeter and operates solely in the frequency range above 18kHz. The UHF horn is designed to deliver a directivity of 30 degrees vertical and 60 degrees horizontal. It delivers uniform sound pressure to the coverage area and minimizes distortion caused by acoustic diffraction.

OPTIMIZED ENCLOSURE
Since there were minimal restrictions on the size and shape of the enclosure, we designed a thick-walled enclosure constructed of medium-density fibreboard (MDF). Using a very sophisticated measuring tool called a scanning laser vibrometer, engineers can precisely locate the enclosure resonances and place appropriate internal bracing to significantly reduce enclosure vibrations.
With the enclosure essentially free from vibrations, we took it to the next level by incorporating a large radius at the top of the front baffle, near the HF and UHF transducers, to limit baffle diffractions affecting the tweeter and UHF driver. The result is superior stereo imaging and a predictable frequency response over a wide listening angle.
In addition, the tapered design of the side panels reduces unwanted standing waves inside the enclosure by eliminating parallel surfaces. This further improves the low-frequency response of the loudspeaker, resulting in tighter, more detailed bass.

FREEFLOW PORT TECHNOLOGY
Developed using finite element analysis, the FreeFlowTM port minimizes audible distortion caused by high-velocity airflow from the enclosure to the listening room at port tuning frequencies. These tuning-port distortions often occur at the flare of the port, where the high-velocity air is not able to escape smoothly and turbulent, audible vortices are created. These Series ports were analyzed and designed to provide the best transition possible, greatly reducing audible turbulence. In addition to the FreeFlow design, we have also designed the port to be as large as possible to further decrease port distortions, since moving the same amount of air through a larger port will create less air pressure.

STRAIGHT-LINE SIGNAL PATHTM (SSP) CROSSOVER NETWORKS
engineers strive to reduce the quantity of network components wherever possible, believing that the most direct path from the input terminals to the drivers results in the purest possible sound with the lowest amount of distortion. Essential network components are of premium quality and selected to ensure minimal distortion and signal loss.

amp:
100 Watts/channel (8Ω, 20Hz to 20kHz, <0.03% THD) 160 Watts/channel (4Ω, 20Hz to 20kHz, <0.03% THD)
CD Player:
Marantz CD60

Cost: Speakers 1.100 in 2007. Amp 1.200 in 2007. CD player: 1100 in 2024 Cables: 11 gauge made in Japan 2024 200.00


Thank you.

 

[TimF]

I'm curious about the car he drives?

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

I'm curious about the car he drives?

2011 jeep wrangler - no power seats or windows, 2019 subaru impreza with unfortunately power windows and mirrors, manual seat adjustments. Light foot=excellent gas milage. Steal hardtail mountain bike for transportation if an emp goes off and car batteries go kaput. So what is your take to my question

 

[Chester]

I stopped reading after a paragraph or two. You seem very pleased with yourself, congrats.

 

[thewas]

It seems these are his loudspeakers

https://th.jbl.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dw4dad4d4c/pdfs/ES%2010,ES%2020,ES%2025C,ES%2030,ES%2080,ES%2090,ES%20150P,ES%20250P%5EJBL%5Elit%5Etechnology%5E%5E%5E.pdf

which like most lower price range Harman products probably also measure and sound quite fine for their money, so if someone is happy with them that is the only thing that matters.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Why do my 18 yr old speakers and 18 yr old integrated amp sound so neutral and musical and full - I have no complaints. I did not even think my system sounded so good until I got the speaker setup and room set up properly and the source is as good as I can get it to be - as good as recordings as I can find - CD. Most expensive speakers I auditioned have been 8000. None of them sounded better than what I have for 3x less.

If you have no complaints, congratulations! Stop thinking about gear and enjoy the music.

I find it takes me up to a week to adapt and be able to evaluate a new speaker by ear. This is particularly true when I have been listening to a given speaker for years and go from that to the new ones. And if I happen to put my vintage speakers in play, which I have had for decades, they sound really really BAD.... for about 2 hours until my ears adapt to their peculiarities. Then they sound good again, for the music I use them for.

I am not sure how long you auditioned speakers, but a single listening session usually isn't enough, particularly if it is not in your normal room. This is because all new speakers will sound "wrong" because they are not what you are used to. It takes some time to get past that.

 

[dmusgr]

My first "good" speakers were Pioneer HPM-900's that were at least 20 years old (over 20 years ago when I had them) with intact and even then, unobtainable carbon graphite coned woofers. I powered them with a silver face Kenwood preamp and amp, fed by a cheap DVD player as a CD source. They sounded amazing then, and I'm sure would sound amazing now if the woofer cones are still intact... and they were last produced in 1983. I'd probably be satisfied with the speakers today and a sub or two.

 

[voodooless]

I am listing specs, not what I have as it can be offensive to some.

After this smug rant about your superiority, you’re worried about being offensive?

Otherwise, I’m not particularly surprised. Most electronics have been transparent for many decades, and decent speakers have been around for ages. The earliest Toole research is from somewhere in the late 70s, so people knew about smooth on-axis and controlled directivity for a long while.

And yes, even budget speakers can be made to sound excellent if you put some engineering talent on them.

Just chill and enjoy!

STRAIGHT-LINE SIGNAL PATHTM (SSP) CROSSOVER NETWORKS
engineers strive to reduce the quantity of network components wherever possible, believing that the most direct path from the input terminals to the drivers results in the purest possible sound with the lowest amount of distortion. Essential network components are of premium quality and selected to ensure minimal distortion and signal loss.

This is of course pure marketing fluff for: “we had little to no budget left for a crossover, so we had to make due with the lowest component count possible and cheapest components that still gave us acceptable linearity.”

 

[LTig]

My speakers are now 21 years old and sound still great as when new. A few years ago I heard speakers for € 180,000 fed by amps for € 220,000 at a dealer and they were no match for mine (active 3-way €2900 and a sub € 1500, AV preamp € 2000).

 

[Mart68]

I'm not familiar with those JBLs but they look pretty capable. A good speaker is a good speaker regardless of age - the advantages of any advancements in technology tend to be, unsurprisingly, overstated in the marketing.

I recently sold some speakers that are more than 20 years old - didn't even have to advertise them. Someone who has heard them before said 'I'll have them.' He works in the industry so it's not like he isn't exposed to contemporary speakers.

 

[kemmler3D]

If you have good room treatment, proper placement, and the speakers ever cost over $1K and were actually worth the money, you should actually expect to have pretty good sound IMO.

I had some (originally) ~$1K B&Ws from the 80s and they sounded rather decent. They weren't as good as my KEF LS60s but they're better and more competitive than you would expect for 30 year old secondhand speakers.

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

Why not?

Erin measured even older and cheaper speakers than yours and they perform great. Granted they are of similar provenance - being more affordable JBL/Harman group products.

Infinity Primus 360 Speaker Review

Infinity Primus 360 Speaker

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Note how much more linear the on-axis response of the Infinity is than L100 Mk2:

 

[dedobot]

I used to grow with Jamo D365 (3way,15'' woofer,$600-1994) and technics SU VX 700 amp. In a 3x4m room. Killer sound for 15 years until they was burned at an outdoor party .

 

[Penelinfi]

If you like them then do you need to change?
Do note that to properly audition, you'd need to hear speakers in your room

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

Hello to all and I appreciate your responses.

Purpose of listing specifications was in the hope that some or anyone would be able to help as the people in the industry that I reached out too including audio advisers at hifi stores, seem to be (strong expletive) hires that know nothing but read the specs that I too have in front of me. Not all but the ones I encountered at the 4 hifi shops in my area and the 5 speaker companies that I called that were talking in circles.

My post was due to me still learning - had not tackled speaker design yet, and due to my own lack of knowledge, I was influenced by those who toot their horn as being knowledgeable - bullocks so far, especially everyone who has picked up the phone at speaker companies you all know of off the back of your hand

Alas: I decided to dig and dig and dig and got in touch with a current designer who understands the design of speakers at the company prior to the take over, and what type of a design they are. Did not speak to literally the actual designer but a current one that hinted that old school speakers were designed at a higher caliber than the expensive ones today - meaning great speaker design was available in the mid price vs high prices of today...........Which is where I was being duped into thinking because my speaker were so affordable back then they were sub par - turns out they were some of the best designed at a giveaway price - Economies of scale and Harman R&D

To end this without dragging this any further : As one Engineer form JBL stated, "its our engineering/design not expensive materials." This goes for all speakers - as long as the design is right you do not need to use expensive materials that drive speaker cost up.

1. Tweeters design :
The following designs are considered the more difficult to engineer and produce the best results: UHF: Ring radiating tweeter in an elliptical oblate spheroidal wave guide HF: Titanium Dome Tweeter in an elliptical oblate spheroidal wave guide - these designs work best - vertical and horizontal dispersion controlled by the spheroidal wave guide is what is responsible for the sound of the highs and soundstage due to dispersion pattern.
2. Full range
3. Properly braced and effective cabinet design - no restriction were given at the time for cabinet design (pre-2007)

Great, so now I understand why this particular speaker design works - great, so time to put to the test everything I heard and learned....Drank 1.5 liters of Beer and decided to call this out for once and for all......Bought a new amp/preamp - all analogue no digital inputs and discrete circuits....with 30wats less RMS than my current amp I was using....what happened....................?

The old amp was the bottle neck apparently.... The significant audible difference in increased dynamics, resolution, instrument separation, Tighter harder bass all came through my speakers which is showing me that my speakers were even more capable than before! So Bullocks to all the sales people that stated I needed better speakers... Note to the rest of you still reading... If you have older speakers that are well designed a new amp may extract even more performance. But of course no audio sales or company bothered to ask about what amp am I using for my speakers or try a new amp with a return policy to see if the bottleneck are the speakers or the amp or source.

Learning a lot form just buying a new amp with a different circuit design.

Thank you to all.... this took way more time than it should have - maybe I should have bought the speaker design handbook than trying to get answers from every other method but in the end I learned and achieved my outcome in determining if it was my speakers that were inadequate or adequate, why they sound as they do and did they have more in them to give by eliminating the bottleneck in the chain which was the older amp -speaker still sounded great but now they resolve more detail.


Too sum up...Speakers were made right and to a higher spec at moderate prices that the average audio enthusiast/audiophile could purchase vs currently were the same effective designs of the past are now expensive as in the average Joe has to spend considerably more then prior to 2008. Which is why I was perplexed with how much speakers have increased vs their quality of sound.

Thank you again,
mission is complete after a year of learning proper speaker placement, room acoustics and finally, yes, a different amp design can improve a speakers capability if the speaker is built to do more. I thought amps were just amps and speaker were just speakers until I proved my self wrong with matter of fact that certain speaker designs will work better for your home than others, Like Erins corner says "speakers design and measurements matter" to help in understating what works best in a persons space".

Thanks again and accept my apologies if I came across frustrated. Money does not grow on trees and I almost ended up spending money on new speaker based on hype. Glad I figured out the amp outcome as well.

Have a great week everyone and wishing you all great health to your ears. I put a few drops of olive oil in my ears once a week to keep the wax soft to clean easier. Even a bit of ear wax throughs of the frequency -


P.S Do you keep your cd and SS amp on all the time?

 

[voodooless]

I was perplexed with how much speakers have increased vs their quality of sound.

Have they? For about the same price as your payed back then (with inflation) you can buy a pair of excellent KEF Q11 Meta, or for even less you get an active speaker like JBL 308P II, and have money left for a sub. There are plenty of good quality, low priced speakers.

 

[cavedriver]

Hello to all and I appreciate your responses.

Purpose of listing specifications was in the hope that some or anyone would be able to help as the people in the industry that I reached out too including audio advisers at hifi stores, seem to be (strong expletive) hires that know nothing but read the specs that I too have in front of me.

You lost me at "strong expletive" hires. Curious what type of hires you were referring to. Audio store employees are of course unreliable sources of information, and I mean especially audio store employees versus other types of stores because the science behind audio reproduction is so poorly disseminated and yet so important to the product's performance. But I don't think it has anything to do with what types of people the stores hire, versus say the people working all the other counters at a Best Buy for example, or any other retail store.

 

[Thomas Savage]

Drank 1.5 liters of Beer

Good man , i was starting to get worried.

 

[solderdude]

aaannnd.... 94 bottles of beer on the wall, 94 bottles of beer

 

[RayDunzl]

My old stuff satisfies me, too.

Speakers bought February 1998.

Amps and preamp vintage 2005 or so, bought later, used, around 2012.

Other little devices in the rack all newer.