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Build of gr-research X-LS Encore

amirm

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#21
Not adding anything inside to the X-LS would be unfair, I think.
He sells the kit without it so there is nothing unfair about it. If we add all of his options it may double the price and then someone claims we made it too expensive for no reason.
 

maty

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#22
Then your measurements will be less important and transcendent. Simile: What is the point of using narrow tires in a sports car?

I have discussed cheaper alternatives. What xrk971 has done is the most common thing these days in the DIY world. You just have to search Amazon or other shops for inexpensive butyl material, avoiding well-known car brands. Or asking him or others known diyers.
 

amirm

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#23
Then your measurements will be less important and transcendent. Simile: What is the point of using narrow tires in a sports car?
We are testing the car as sold by manufacturer. They should not sell it that way if it doesn't perform.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #24
He sells the kit without it so there is nothing unfair about it. If we add all of his options it may double the price and then someone claims we made it too expensive for no reason.
Agreed, whether there is merit (or not) in dampening or any other of the upgrades, the point is whether the designer/supplier considered them essential. When we tested the Dayton C-Note, it was not supplied with any damping material. It was found to be essential, but consulting the designer beforehand, would have raised the same questions of impartiality as a vendor-supplied product might.

So as to fairness, GR Research gets the same, consistent treatment as any other kit supplier. The kit has no dampening material AND no specs/instructions on how a builder might apply. I will build to spec and we will test the result. As with other products, the vendor will have a chance to respond. At that point, we can make a call on whether further action is necessary. :cool:
 

maty

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#25
Those who listen to good recordings and know a bit of electroacustics, applied mechanics and transmission waves are sure to add cushioning to the inside of the boxes, be it No Rez or other material.

Do what you want.

For me the most important measurement will be the distortion (drivers and box), since it is the one that I do not have on the X-LS Encore. They are others GR-Rearach that interest me much more, open baffle (at least the ribbon tweeter):
 
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MZKM

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#26
We are testing the car as sold by manufacturer. They should not sell it that way if it doesn't perform.
Yeah, the plans state “Lining the Box with No Rez is highly recommended.”, not required.

To keep with the car analogy: That’s like the Bugatti coming with their standard tires, but needing their $30,000 special Michelin tires to reach max speed.

In the future though, I would like to see a DIY speaker tested bare bones and then with all the upgrades applied.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #27
Yeah, the plans state “Lining the Box with No Rez is highly recommended.”, not required.

To keep with the car analogy: That’s like the Bugatti coming with their standard tires, but needing their $30,000 special Michelin tires to reach max speed.

In the future though, I would like to see a DIY speaker tested bare bones and then with all the upgrades applied.
Maybe someday. In this case, there are so many upgrades, Amir would need to test each one to know which had the most impact. That is quite a bit of work for one speaker design. As I stated in post #1, if the baseline does not perform well without dampening, I can add. In the end, it will be Amir's call. As they are sold in pairs, I can ship one without and one with dampening. This is would be minimal added cost.

As for the other upgrades, adding them does double the kit price. If someone has one that is fully upgraded (or GR decides to supply), then maybe you will get your wish. :)
 

raindance

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#28
The original x-ls speakers that were sold by Mark Schifter had acoustic damping in them. It looked like polyester fiber. I had a pair. They sounded thick and seemed rolled off in the high treble. Like an enforced tube amp warmness. Evidently the kit has an improved crossover, so I'm interested in the measurements.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #29
back to the build...

I have done the crossover layouts. It was fairly straightforward, but the air-core woofer inductor is a bit of a challenge. Probably not obvious, but it is over 3" in diameter. It is more of a challenge to land inside cabinet as no room on back (where I usually prefer to mount them). If you have seen my other builds, I like to directly connect the binding posts to the crossover. In this case, the provided terminal cup does not readily support.

Glue is setting on front baffle for my previous project, so aiming to cut some panels for this one later today. :)
 

maty

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#31
The original x-ls speakers that were sold by Mark Schifter had acoustic damping in them. It looked like polyester fiber. I had a pair. They sounded thick and seemed rolled off in the high treble. Like an enforced tube amp warmness. Evidently the kit has an improved crossover, so I'm interested in the measurements.
The original X-LS mini-monitor kit
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90911.msg971112#msg971112

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...razy-cheap-2-way-kit-deal?p=710901#post710901

[ I have the XLS floorstanders and MTM Center as my current HT setup. I have no complaints. The kit prices are excellent deals.

Here are WT2 measurements for a new M165 from the kit. As stated previously, they are not the XBL motor.

Re = 5.4449 ohms
Fs = 38.6924 Hz
Zmax = 39.5201 ohms
Qes = 0.4895
Qms = 3.0631
Qts = 0.4220
Le = 0.4645 mH (at 1 kHz)
Diam = 130.1750 mm ( 5.1250 in )
Sd =13308.9880 mm^2( 20.6290 in^2)
Vas = 39.2672 L ( 1.3867 ft^3)
BL = 5.4150 N/A
Mms = 10.8421 g
Cms = 1560.5432 uM/N
Kms = 640.8025 N/M
Rms = 0.8605 R mechanical
Efficiency = 0.4367 %
Sensitivity= 88.4194 dB @1W/1m
Sensitivity= 90.0905 dB @2.83Vrms/1m ]


At the end of PDF:

[ Braces are designed to be glued in using LiquidNails. Exact placement is not critical. Lining theBox with No Rez is highly recommended. ]
 

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TimW

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#32
The vast majority of ported speakers have some sort of absortive material lining the cabinet. I thought it was silly that the C-Note's were tested with no kind of lining whatsoever. And it is silly to test this speaker sans any lining as well. If I were building these kits I would designate a standard lining material for all ported speaker kits that don't come with it. Something like polyfill sheets, egg crate foam or sonicbarrier.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #33
The vast majority of ported speakers have some sort of absortive material lining the cabinet. I thought it was silly that the C-Note's were tested with no kind of lining whatsoever. And it is silly to test this speaker sans any lining as well. If I were building these kits I would designate a standard lining material for all ported speaker kits that don't come with it. Something like polyfill sheets, egg crate foam or sonicbarrier.
While in principle I agree, the problem is implementation without specification. Different types and amount of dampening will change the outcome. What I think is best, may be different than your opinion. GR suggests No-Rez, PE wants sonic barrier, and Madisound yet something else...

As an engineer, before I brought a problem to management, I was always better off when I had a solution. But the proposed solution better have considered the impact on schedule, quality and cost. So, since there is no specification, my recommendation to Amir is to forgo the dampening until I test. If there are results that clearly demonstrate a need for dampening, then can propose a fix. Otherwise, I may be adding cost and time and not achieve improved quality. In the end, Amir is my customer and so if he wants to change the deliverable, it is up to him. :)
 
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ta240

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#34
Those who listen to good recordings and know a bit of electroacustics, applied mechanics and transmission waves are sure to add cushioning....
I'm not sure that describes the average person building, what is likely, their first DIY speaker. Maybe they should have some prerequisite classes in electroacustics... that are required before purchasing.

Yeah, the plans state “Lining the Box with No Rez is highly recommended.”, not required.
....
If lining is really required then it might be good to make a fairly simple change in the line about it to "Lining the box with at least X" thick open cell foam is necessary, if you don't already have a suitable lining material we recommend No Rez".

edit: I just went and looked at the page for it on their site and it says "You might also want to add a sheet of No Rez. " That is as strong as their suggestion on the site is. He may have pushed it harder in a video somewhere but the site itself is pretty lukewarm about it.

One of the top problems encountered when people that have a great depth of knowledge on a subject try to share that knowledge is they don't stop and remember that the person on the receiving end will not automatically think of the things they think of.

I see it all the time on the DIY electronics sites where they say they want to get more people into the hobby and then when someone new asks a question they often, at best, get short answers that assume a higher level of basic knowledge in the area or, at worst, dismissive or condescending answers.

Not having a basic rough layout drawing for the crossover and a suggested placement listed are just the expert taking for granted that the first timer knows this stuff already when they won't.
 
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TimW

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#35
If there are results that clearly demonstrate a need for dampening, then can propose a fix.
The problem with this is that Amir has a large backlog of testing to do. I think it is highly unlikely that he will go back and test the same speaker with damping added. He didn't do that with the C-Note did he? And yet the designer came and recommended significant damping. No the kit didn't come with that but it also didn't come with binding posts, screws, wire, wood glue or solder. The GR kit comes with more of the small parts but it doesn't come with the enclosure so clearly it's not complete. Danny has stated No Rez is highly recommended and to me that justifies it being installed in the speaker to be measured.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #36
The problem with this is that Amir has a large backlog of testing to do. I think it is highly unlikely that he will go back and test the same speaker with damping added. He didn't do that with the C-Note did he? And yet the designer came and recommended significant damping. No the kit didn't come with that but it also didn't come with binding posts, screws, wire, wood glue or solder. The GR kit comes with more of the small parts but it doesn't come with the enclosure so clearly it's not complete. Danny has stated No Rez is highly recommended and to me that justifies it being installed in the speaker to be measured.
In this case, Amir has made a decision and I am running with it. If you read earlier in the thread, you would know he considered dampening along with several other upgrades that are offered. Whether the upgrade is for dampening, better crossover components, tube connectors, etc., he makes the call.

Hindsight is great. Go check the C-Note page and there still is no dampening material recommendation. If No-Rez is the only dampening that makes his speaker exceptional, than Danny should specify how much and how to apply it. He doesn’t and so we are left guessing if it solves a major problem or a much more minor one. You noted he does not supply a cabinet, but he supplies a detailed specification for it. Nowhere in that drawing is a mention of a dampening material requirement. I get you may be frustrated, but I am here to deliver what is required and am donating time and materials. If you think you want to try, I welcome the effort.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #37
Well, after Maty's post, my pic seems rather sad, but will add some color from my own experience that may help others considering a purchase. As you can see, the kit includes some information. Note I kept the smaller parts in their bags just to keep them from being misplaced :). A few notes now that I have unpacked. The tweeters are hefty and, if that implies quality, am looking forward to working with them. On the other hand, the woofers tend the other way, and are much lighter than many others I have (but will reserve judgement as they are also much less expensive than many others).

As for the instructions, they are pretty light and so, despite the nice parts coverage, not near as complete. A few obvious questions might be how to layout the crossover (only schematic supplied), where/how to mount it, and why heat shrink tubing is supplied? None of this is addressed. Fortunately, the crossover topology is simple and so I will do a layout later. As for wood, it appears I will have more than enough using my usual 2x4 foot sheets of 3/4 inch MDF (1 sheet is more than enough for one cabinet). More to come...

View attachment 70635
Just went to build the crossovers and found my pics are sad for other reasons. One should have been obvious - no resistors. GR packs in shredded paper and they were still in the box! The other was missing caps. I only have 4 and there should be 6. A quick call to Danny confirmed a problem on his end. Hopefully, they get here before I get a cabinet built :oops:.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #38
Some good progress on panels today. Am attaching my MDF layout for reference for those less experienced. I included the order in which I make the cuts. Some complained that I should have taken pics of the cuts on the last build, but seems like a bit much to me. I start with my longest cut and keep progressively making shorter cuts. As adjacent panels may share a dimension, this helps ensure I cut consistently the same dimension. If I have to recut to the same dimension as existing panel, will use the existing panel as a pattern (rather than measuring). If I build from a flat pack, there are no cuts to post, so this seems like a good compromise.

Note my MDF was long enough (48.5 inches) to allow less cuts. The remaining wood is more than enough to make the braces. To make them, I used some smaller scrap I had around that might otherwise been thrown away.

In the end, you should have a pile of wood that looks like this...

0CA67C95-2668-4AAD-989F-BED042775A86.jpeg

All opposing sides are the same dimensions (from left to right these are, top and bottom, the sides, and front and back panels). The pieces above them are braces - 4 corner ones, one long one that attaches to the sides through the middle of the cabinet.

Did a dry fit and all is good, so should start putting some panels together soon.
 

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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #39
Since am waiting for the one capacitor, redid the tweeter crossover layout to make the wiring easier as decided I will mount on the lower right side of the cabinet. May have been able to put it all on the bottom, but this way will keep wires away from the woofer.

Started the gluing by attaching one of the sides (horizontal piece) to the top (vertical piece) like so...

76956DDE-48DA-4AA4-B588-14F9B0FCDE73.jpeg
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thread Starter #40
Wrote this all up as the next post only to find my old circle cutting router is dead. It will only slow getting the front baffle done, so posting anyway as it still will apply and will continue to progress as best I can...

Next will work on routing the front baffle. Normally would deal with it last, but the bracing will be easier with it attached sooner. Not sure why the braces are not just simple cleats, then could have glued the front ones (and front baffle) later.

Since the plans call for braces to be attached with Liquid Nails, am going to do them all together. I noticed the flat-pack supplier created more of a cleat-style brace and glues them in last. Suggest other builders take his lead. As promised though, will build to the designer-provided plans.

Routing the tweeter hole will be done using a 3/8" bit to cut the recess at a depth of 3/16", then cut the main hole with a 3.125" hole saw and use router to carve out the spacing for the tweeter's terminals. I use hole saws when I can as they create less dust and do not require multiple passes (as hole cutting with the router would). I will then turn over the front baffle and cut the 5.75" hole for the woofer. After that, will change bits and do the specified roundover for the woofer cutout.
 
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