Bruno Putzeys ‘Life on the edge’

[pma]

I find the trend of buying audio on internet, playing with it and returning without a serious reason against the purchase cost within 2 weeks immoral.

 

[restorer-john]

I find the trend of buying audio on internet, playing with it and returning without a serious reason against the purchase cost within 2 weeks immoral.

Companies in Australia are under no obligation whatsoever to refund customers for products that exhibit no faults, are fit for purpose and are as advertised. It's the retailers who have created this 'returns monster' and quite frankly, I have no sympathy.

I've never bought something, played with it, and returned it for no sensible reason. I make a decision to buy, the retailer accepts my offer and the transaction is complete. Key word being- complete. The only time a remedy can be required is where the retailer has not fulfilled his duty under consumer law.

I spent way too many years in retail, back in the sensible days where we'd send idiot customers out the door who tried that sort of crap on us. By all means, look after your customers, but don't be taken for a ride by clowns. Do your due diligence before you engage in a contract to purchase, not after.

 

[pma]

In the EU, there is a 14 days “cooling off” period to return purchase made on-line for any reason.

SHOPPING ONLINE WITHIN THE EU

If you plan to buy products within the EU, there are a number of rights you are entitled to.

op.europa.eu

And it is of course misused. Buy a new DAC, play with it and then return it. Usual practice here.

 

[GXAlan]

It's the retailers who have created this 'returns monster' and quite frankly, I have no sympathy.

I've never bought something, played with it, and returned it for no sensible reason.

Do your due diligence before you engage in a contract to purchase, not after.

How do you approach the advertised “in home trial” approach from companies like Sonos?

I think it can be hard to do all of your due diligence. Option A is the return system which distributes the burden across many consumers, and relies on retailers utilizing return bans for abusers of the policy.

Option B is all sales final, which relies on the retailer passing savings onto the customer that reflects the retailer’s savings from not needing a return policy in place (other than defects).

Last, what if the defect is a software glitch/incompatibility/feature? Option B gets tough if the customer thinks the device is broken and does not perform as advertised but the retailer does not allow the return.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

In the EU, there is a 14 days “cooling off” period to return purchase made on-line for any reason.

SHOPPING ONLINE WITHIN THE EU

If you plan to buy products within the EU, there are a number of rights you are entitled to.

op.europa.eu

And it is of course misused. Buy a new DAC, play with it and then return it. Usual practice here.

I won't call it a usual (e.g., generalized) practise here in europe.
I am in France and had never returned anything that was not broken (happened a couple of times in the past 20 years as items were broken).
Most of people I know and have known behave the same.
I am maybe old school like John.
Of course some individuals behave as you describe but I don't think it is the vast majority. Europe is a big land. And surely some people misuse of this right to buy, play and return with no proper reason.

 

[pma]

I am in France and had never returned anything that was not broken (happened a couple of times in the past 20 years as items were broken).
Most of people I know and have known behave the same.

I am not saying YOU, John, me ...... are doing that. I am only saying I know many people who behave this way and even share their experience through audio forums.

I think that is the same case as with many other regulations of the EU Commission. There may be a good intent in the beginning (this time to protect the customer), but it counts with idealized human behaviour. We can see it very often.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

I am not saying YOU, John, me ...... are doing that. I am only saying I know many people who behave this way and even share their experience through audio forums.

I think that is the same case as with many other regulations of the EU Commission. There may be a good intent in the beginning (this time to protect the customer), but it counts with idealized human behaviour. We can see it very often.

I agree that this EU regulation tends to be misused and that's a pity.
I am just saying that it is not as generalized as depicted. It tends to spread with hifi or electronics nerds but extended to the whole market and population, I don't think so.

 

[restorer-john]

How do you approach the advertised “in home trial” approach from companies like Sonos?

I think it can be hard to do all of your due diligence. Option A is the return system which distributes the burden across many consumers, and relies on retailers utilizing return bans for abusers of the policy.

Option B is all sales final, which relies on the retailer passing savings onto the customer that reflects the retailer’s savings from not needing a return policy in place (other than defects).

Last, what if the defect is a software glitch/incompatibility/feature? Option B gets tough if the customer thinks the device is broken and does not perform as advertised but the retailer does not allow the return.

I've never participated/bought anything with an "in-home trial". It's generally a way to lower the buyer's barrier to purchase and they count on a significant proportion of dissatisfied buyers to exceed the trial period or simply accept the product, even though they really didn't want it after using it but couldn't be bothered with the often labyrinthine returns process.

Yes, it can be hard to do sufficient due-diligence. Sure, with not many HiFi stores, it can be harder. But that is ultimately the buyer's responsibility isn't it? Why should all the other buyers be subsidizing the cohort that return stuff for no good reason and create huge freight/packaging/write-off costs which all get passed on one way or another?

Option B is my preferred way of doing business.

Genuine intermittent faults can be described in detail by the customer attempting to return the item and he/she/they can require a full refund based on the classification of a "major fault" or a fault which if the buyer had been aware of prior to purchase, they would not have purchased the product the first place.

An expectation of a certain quality of good is also a valid reason for return. I returned a wall mounted self retracting hose reel last week due to the quality of the 20M hose being significantly below what I would have expected for the price and the length of the warranty - 5 years. The hose was thin and easily kinked and I didn't even need to unpack the product completely or even test it. I knew it would not last 5 years after opening the bottom flaps of the box and looking inside. (old HiFi salesman trick to keep a 'sealed in the carton' product for those fussy buyers). Not the housing, the hose, the retracting mechanism or even the wall mount was up to expectations.

 

[Doodski]

I've never participated/bought anything with an "in-home trial". It's generally a way to lower the buyer's barrier to purchase and they count on a significant proportion of dissatisfied buyers to exceed the trial period or simply accept the product, even though they really didn't want it after using it but couldn't be bothered with the often labyrinthine returns process.

I call that the puppy dog close. Take the puppy home, you'll love it! I never used the puppy dog close because it fills the warehouse with opened boxes.

 

[restorer-john]

I call that the puppy dog close. Take the puppy home, you'll love it! I never used the puppy dog close because it fills the warehouse with opened boxes.

Sell that puppy (with a nice leash, chew toys, winter coat and expensive bag of puppy food they can't return) on a Wednesday/Thursday. They have 5 days to return the puppy. You've got Friday night drinks, the whole weekend and then back to work Monday. Damn! forgot to return the puppy...

 

[Purité Audio]

I much prefer sending a demonstration unit to a potential customer, hopefully ensuring they are completely happy before purchase.
Speakers too, install them,( ideally if space allows keep the customer’s existing set up) measure apply any filters and then leave them in peace to make up their own minds.
Keith

 

[Axo1989]

Pop is such a wide label, but here are some pretty commercial examples produced the last 10 years or so. These are not cherry picked to be especially pristine recordings, and the DR is probably mostly pretty low. But they all still pass the test of sounding better on better systems with flying colors.

Yes, I agree. Different sub-genres have their conventions of course. But the DRDB method also has its limitations. Not least being that we can discriminate different sonic elements by frequency and timbre within an overall amplitude envelope (high or low).

I'll throw in one of my favourite pop tracks from this year. It lists as DR2. Could it get much lower? You might imagine it's excruciating and unlistenable (sonically, whether or not to your taste is tangential). Of course, it isn't. It isn't even a "wall of sound" subjectively. Take DR numbers advisedly.

https://soundcloud.com/charlixcx%2F365a1

Fun typography on the lyric video too.

Obviously, it sounds quite different on a "good system". The bass pumps of course, becoming quite tactile. And you can hear the layered sonic elements much more nicely. When the lyrics drop right back in the mix as the song progresses, for example.

 

[Axo1989]

It's hard to say how they will sound in a room, but I would also suggest they're probably a bit lean. Forgive me for using my own speakers for comparison, but I will since I know them well, and because I think they have a more correct in-room response in the upper bass / lower mid than many speakers.

We can at least agree that the the Genelecs is leaner, and then it's a larger debate what is most accurate I guess.

Genelec is the dotted one below. Ours would be paired by a sub, so it would typically be extending in a straight line from the start of the roll-off. So the response would be above the dotted line of the Genelec all the way to 20hz. It gives a fuller response, and to me more accurate compared to actual live instruments (which are typically not lean sounding at all).



On-axis:
View attachment 402492

Interesting.

I haven't heard either (smaller Gennies a while back though). The difference is subtle, so we don't consider either speaker to be inaccurate. Since I apply the not-lean B&K 1974 curve to my own loudspeakers (they are also a bit lean in the mid-bass, uncorrected) I expect I'd prefer the Manta plus sub out-of-the-box.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Interesting.

I haven't heard either (smaller Gennies a while back though). The difference is subtle, so we don't consider either speaker to be inaccurate. Since I apply the not-lean B&K 1974 curve to my own loudspeakers (they are also a bit lean in the mid-bass, uncorrected) I expect I'd prefer the Manta plus sub out-of-the-box.

Both SBS.1 and Manta match the B&K curve pretty close in-room (5-6dB drop), depending on how you adjust the gain on the subs.

 

[Purité Audio]

Side by side with Mantas/8Cs Gens do sound a little ‘thin’ in comparison but once adjusted…
Keith

 

[Fidji]

The comparison between Atmos mixes is only meaningful if done on a 7.x.4 channel system IMO, because those are the active channels. I presume that’s what you’re using. I am.
I get that you’re trying to make the snob argument, but…just stop. It’s just dumb.

Actually, I was just trying to state the obvious - each system is different and I stand by this statement. No idea why it translated in your head into "snob".

You’ve said nothing about the bias controls in place before the listening that led to these grand pronouncements, so nobody is inclined to think they mean anything.

Actually quite some time ago, I always took a chance and participated in some od those funny "blind tests" e.g. by Archimago and I was able to tell the difference both between MP3 and PCM, and as well between MQA and PCM. I am no golden ear, and no idea if 10 years later I would still get the same results. But I suspect that hundreds of hours of listening to different versions of same works, looking for differences between Abbado and Rattle take on the same stuff trains you to recognize nuances in sound.

There is enough evidence out there, that, there is minority in the population, that is able to recognize different format, although majority is not.

But it would be interesting experiment - you can do the same stuff as Archimago in the past, and prepare some files for ABX testing, if you really care about it. But until then your opinion, that it is not possible to hear the difference between lossy and lossless Atmos files is just that - opinion, based on your own anecdotical experience. And I do not care enough about this topic to put any extra effort to prove that I can.

Well call me jealous on that. Love that hall! One of my most memorable concerts ever was seeing Vladimir Ashkenazy lead the DSO through Shostakovich 5 from the front row of the upper deck of the Philharmonie facing the conductor. Orchestra Hall here in Chicago doesn’t have that kind of seating. But it’s a fantastic ensemble and a great place to enjoy music.

I like actually Musikverein [Wiener Philharmoniker home scene] better than Berlin, acoustics is different, but equally impressive.

If you liked the Berlin gig - they have their own Digital Concert Hall - https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concerts
Good sound, while still DD+ but higher bitrate compared to Apple Music and subscription very much worth it.

But that goes back to the larger point: knowing the enormous chasm between the real thing and canned just makes bleating about alleged differences between two different cans all the more asinine, no?

Indeed - but why go for third best, if you can have second best? And I agree - if I do not enjoy something in DD+, there is zero chance I will enjoy in TrueHD. But if I do enjoy lossy bitstream, I will enjoy lossless a tiny bit more ;-).

 

[Fidji]

I think you changed the goal post here. I did not say that DR4 records would necessarily sound "sonically excellent". I was commenting on the statement that low DR would not only sound bad, it would sound worse on a good system, which is not true.

I dug up a fun band from Nevada for you. I suspect they won't vote for the same presidental candidate that I would have done if I lived in the USA (which I don't), but luckily that's not what this discussion is about. Five Finger Death Punch: War is The Answer. The 2018 reissue that I took a screenshot of below is available for instance on Spotify.

The first track is pretty heavy, so perhaps check out the relatively soft tracks "Bad Company" (DR5) and "Far from home" (DR6) before venturing to other tracks. This album sounds just fine, and it without a doubt sounds better on a better system.

Interestingly there's loads of expensive systems that makes stuff like this sound pretty bad. Common features about those systems are:

• Lack of low end
• Lack of energy in the mid bass
• Uneven response in the 1-4khz area
• Elevated highs.

So I hope you appreciate all my efforts for the cause of audio science, In the spirit of DR4 challenge I have chosen Track3 and listened on following gears:
- old Apple headphones
- BT Sony 1000MX5 [my plane BT headphones]
- HarmanKardon car audio in my wife's car
- Burmester 4D car audio in my car
- Neumann KH310 with DSP to remove room modes
- Martin Logan Renaissance 15A crossed over at 80Hz to 4x4 Trinnov Waveforming subs, room acoustically treated to have +-10% decay time 100-10.000Hz, speaker linearity +-2dB and B&K Curve. Profesionally calibrated. Probably not perfect, but also nothing that can be described as "broken" [EDIT: It got actually bit better, when I tried upmix to Auromatic, but I think we can agree, that this was not intended use case, to run it via 24 channels]

While the music was not really offensively bad [although I do not really get the purpose of this pop-metal [like the chubby white adolescents, that try to pretend they are tough gangstas]. sonically it was a formless compressed porridge in my reference system. on KH310 nearfield it was like a sonic waterboarding.
Car Audio and headphones - I could survive, without lasting brain damage.

You owe me for going through this, my friend.

 

[sigbergaudio]

So I hope you appreciate all my efforts for the cause of audio science, In the spirit of DR4 challenge I have chosen Track3 and listened on following gears:
- old Apple headphones
- BT Sony 1000MX5 [my plane BT headphones]
- HarmanKardon car audio in my wife's car
- Burmester 4D car audio in my car
- Neumann KH310 with DSP to remove room modes
- Martin Logan Renaissance 15A crossed over at 80Hz to 4x4 Trinnov Waveforming subs, room acoustically treated to have +-10% decay time 100-10.000Hz, speaker linearity +-2dB and B&K Curve. Profesionally calibrated. Probably not perfect, but also nothing that can be described as "broken" [EDIT: It got actually bit better, when I tried upmix to Auromatic, but I think we can agree, that this was not intended use case, to run it via 24 channels]

While the music was not really offensively bad [although I do not really get the purpose of this pop-metal [like the chubby white adolescents, that try to pretend they are tough gangstas]. sonically it was a formless compressed porridge in my reference system. on KH310 nearfield it was like a sonic waterboarding.
Car Audio and headphones - I could survive, without lasting brain damage.

You owe me for going through this, my friend.

First of all, creds for testing! But you didn't read the instructions, I specifically said you should try Bad Company or Far From Home, you ended up picking one of the "worst" tracks on the album. Also doesn't seem like you appreciate this genre, which probably doesn't help.

But I am still surprised if you think it sounded better on Apple or Car Audio than on your main system. Not a great review of the KH310 either.

The track you are referring to ("Bulletproof") is pretty intense and monotonous, but on my system it is not harsh, forward or difficult to listen to in any way. And while I agree it's somewhat of a wall of sound, it's not porridge. It's still possible to pick out the individual instruments - drums, hihats/cymbals, guitar and voice are clearly separated. It's nowhere near as bad as older black metal as an example, that's like ten times worse (and admittedly not a high bar to pass).e

EDIT: Either way the point was a bit lost I think, since you're likely finding this to be porridge due to the production choices and type of music. How about testing Bad Company, which is DR5 so almost as bad with regards to dynamic range. Not on all systems, just on your main system perhaps.

 

[Axo1989]

First of all, creds for testing! But you didn't read the instructions, I specifically said you should try Bad Company or Far From Home, you ended up picking one of the "worst" tracks on the album. Also doesn't seem like you appreciate this genre, which probably doesn't help.

But I am still surprised if you think it sounded better on Apple or Car Audio than on your main system. Not a great review of the KH310 either.

The track you are referring to ("Bulletproof") is pretty intense and monotonous, but on my system it is not harsh, forward or difficult to listen to in any way. And while I agree it's somewhat of a wall of sound, it's not porridge. It's still possible to pick out the individual instruments - drums, hihats/cymbals, guitar and voice are clearly separated. It's nowhere near as bad as older black metal as an example, that's like ten times worse (and admittedly not a high bar to pass).e

EDIT: Either way the point was a bit lost I think, since you're likely finding this to be porridge due to the production choices and type of music. How about testing Bad Company, which is DR5 so almost as bad with regards to dynamic range. Not on all systems, just on your main system perhaps.

A quick listen and yes it's not hard to differentiate the sonic elements that make up tracks 1 or 4. I can't imagine not being able to do this on any of those systems, much less the good one.

I would note that systems which don't deliver much bass may in fact sound better to listeners who don't have an appetite for the music. Otoh I do enjoy certain metal sub-genres. Including straight-up metalcore all the way to electro-pop/nu-metal fusion (not those guys though, retrograde social values can take a hike, fortunately Apple Music has a "recommend less" tag).

It's possible @Fidji ignores me, or didn't take the DR2 test above for another reason. For a more metal reference, here's one that may well approach sonic cacophony subjectively (but DR5):

Of course it's possible to differentiate the sonic elements here too, but you may need a metal-trained ear. Structurally, it's an interesting one, being built around a jazz break re-composed to metal genre, and with interesting time signature trickery especially as the concluding breakdown progresses—prog rock disguised as metalcore. There is plenty to listen for. From the comments:

I might have a strange way of doing things, as I am classically trained composer who does not think in regular metres – my way shows how the rhythm keeps augmenting itself ... so the breakdown (from 2 mins in) works for me as – 2/4 x 4, (move) 6/8, 7/8, 4/4, 5/8, 5/4 (follow the hi-hat tic or you will not get it), 3/4, (Poppy starts screaming) 6/8, 7/8, 4/4, 5/8, 7/16, 4/4. Then crotchet = dotted crotched metrical modulation 6/4, 7/4, 4/2, 5/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4. The crotchet beat ends up the same as the beginning of the song. I have seen the beginning of Eat written in 3/4, but it doesn't really express the complexity of what is happening either (try 7/4 + 5/4 – much more fun + there is a clear five downbeats before she starts singing). TBH, there aren't many bands around where you could even need to think about expressing things as above. It would just be >yawn< syncopation or something.

Apologies for the continued digression from the thread topic obviously, brought on by the 'classical music at the top of the listening hierarchy' trope that this tangent started with. And we can also say there's no need to add harmonic distortion to that track, at least. So Eigentakt will be just fine.

 

[Fidji]

First of all, creds for testing! But you didn't read the instructions, I specifically said you should try Bad Company or Far From Home, you ended up picking one of the "worst" tracks on the album. Also doesn't seem like you appreciate this genre, which probably doesn't help.

But I am still surprised if you think it sounded better on Apple or Car Audio than on your main system[. Not a great review of the KH310 either.

The track you are referring to ("Bulletproof") is pretty intense and monotonous, but on my system it is not harsh, forward or difficult to listen to in any way. And while I agree it's somewhat of a wall of sound, it's not porridge. It's still possible to pick out the individual instruments - drums, hihats/cymbals, guitar and voice are clearly separated. It's nowhere near as bad as older black metal as an example, that's like ten times worse (and admittedly not a high bar to pass).e

EDIT: Either way the point was a bit lost I think, since you're likely finding this to be porridge due to the production choices and type of music. How about testing Bad Company, which is DR5 so almost as bad with regards to dynamic range. Not on all systems, just on your main system perhaps.

I would say most of it is semantics - what you describe as a wall of sound is a porridge to me. I am trying to give it negative quality connotation by describing it as a porridge ;-) [on top of it just being completely boring, as "bringing nothing interesting, nothing intellectually or emotionally stimulating, and also nothing that you could not hear done 10x better elsewhere". The songs you mentioned - this is just bad music, full of clichés and zero artistic value. Yes I can differentiate the instruments etc - but it does not make me enjoy the music more on better gear.
Let's get to the other extreme - take something that is perfect [in broader sense] - Bach and his Mass in B Minor [https://shop.monteverdi.co.uk/product/bach-mass-in-b-minor/] I think you can find it also on streaming. and exquisitely recorded. Some say this is the pinnacle of Western culture [it is interesting thing to discuss, as this specific piece has funny background story].

Opening track - Kyrie Eleison and its vocal instrumentation [Bass - Tenor - Alto and 2xSoprano Choir sections] - if you play it loudly on any system - you know straight from the bat if that setup is good or not. And better the system then the music get exponentially more impressive. You do not get this reward with today's compressed music.
[BTW there are 2 Blu Rays out there, recorded in the very church where Bach was performing, well worth the purchase both of them, if you are into MCH music]. On the other hand this specific piece is quite forgiving, as it is inherently beautiful. But let's try some Stravinsky or Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition as a torture test of a quality of the system, or I recommend to blast this one loudly, and you will know after couple of minutes, whether you have any problem in treble range.

Do not get me wrong - I also do like lot of different music genres - e.g. I think Dimmu Borgir and their early stuff is pretty good [to salute your home country] and I spent very nice evening lately listening to a-ha's Summer Solstice unplugged live version. My latest live events [and I go to live music quite often range from Adele, Nick Cave [just wow], David Gilmour [that was f...ing something in Circo Massimo in Rome] to Phillipe Jaroussky and his interpretation of early French court music. [look for Pasacaille de la Folie]

@Axo1989 - I am not ignoring you ;-) , I just think that hype around Charli xcx is more of byproduct of current culture wars, than anything having to do with good music or having any sonic qualities. I have read really glowing review of this album, sa I have given it a try, but I could not find anything that would resonate with me. I like Bille Eilish more.

And without trying to offend anybody - if somebody says Kylie Minogue is "sonically excellent", then the most polite thing I can do is I pretend that I have never heard it. Or maybe we live in times, where standards are so low, that everybody clears the bar. We live in the age of participation trophies.

Time to walk the dogs. Ciao.