Both DAC are transparent as measures by Amir, why one not as clean sounding as the other?

[ElNino]

The spectrogram looks good to me.

View attachment 139627

That rules out several possible causes. It looks to me that most of the difference is due to the difference in digital filters.

Like PMA said, the earlier graph (showing differences at -63dB) exaggerates the differences in the time domain (i.e., phase). However, that doesn't mean it's not audible -- whether differences in filtering are audible (or ABXable) is not a debate I feel like wading into today, but at least you see a possible measurement-derived reason for the subjective differences you're perceiving.

 

[DSJR]

The E30 apparently also sounded better when the X16 was bought. Honest question, how does the E30 'sound' these days in comparison to the other two?

Is the Node 2i doing something possibly?

 

[Pdxwayne]

That rules out several possible causes. It looks to me that most of the difference is due to the difference in digital filters.

Like PMA said, the earlier graph (showing differences at -63dB) exaggerates the differences in the time domain (i.e., phase). However, that doesn't mean it's not audible -- whether differences in filtering are audible (or ABXable) is not a debate I feel like wading into today, but at least you see a possible measurement-derived reason for the subjective differences you're perceiving.

Thanks! Regarding the spectrogram, at least according to my laptop's screen, it is not all deep green like there is 0 db difference. It looks to me there could be ~0.5db difference all the way through. What do you see, color wise, on your own screen?

 

[Pdxwayne]

The E30 apparently also sounded better when the X16 was bought. Honest question, how does the E30 'sound' these days in comparison to the other two?

Is the Node 2i doing something possibly?

I was checking d30 and X16 with two different setups. The E30 is now part of my computer setup and E30 sounds fine in that setup as compared to the others. I now have both X16 and D30Pro in my computer room. X16 still sound a bit more enjoyable than d30pro......using usb out from laptop.

 

[DSJR]

I was checking d30 and X16 with two different setups. The E30 is now part of my computer setup and E30 sounds fine in that setup as compared to the others. I now have both X16 and D30Pro in my computer room. X16 still sound a bit more enjoyable than d30pro......using usb out from laptop.

Is the difference between them staying the same for you over time or is it changing at all? I'm asking these 'ASR stupid questions' while the more objective thinkers here wrack their brains to see what else it could be. My hearing's so bad now I can't tell the difference in filter settings on a dac I played with, so can't possibly offer any thoughts here.

 

[pkane]

Thanks! Regarding the spectrogram, at least according to my laptop's screen, it is not all deep green like there is 0 db difference. It looks to me there could be ~0.5db difference all the way through. What do you see, color wise, on your own screen?

Post the Spectrum of Delta and Delta of Spectra plots. These will show filter differences.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Is the difference between them staying the same for you over time or is it changing at all? I'm asking these 'ASR stupid questions' while the more objective thinkers here wrack their brains to see what else it could be. My hearing's so bad now I can't tell the difference in filter settings on a dac I played with, so can't possibly offer any thoughts here.

For X16, when it is brand new, e30 sounded better. After a few weeks of usage, x16 sounded similar to e30. I was thinking maybe there is such thing as burn in, but I got heavily criticized in my other thread for saying that....

 

[Pdxwayne]

Post the Spectrum of Delta and Delta of Spectra plots. These will show filter differences.

Here you go. These are for the white noise comparison.
What can you tell from the plots? Thanks!

 

[pkane]

Here you go. What can you tell from the plots? Thanks!
View attachment 139631

View attachment 139630

Can you post these charts for the music comparison? Your noise comparison shows an extremely poor match (-12dB RMS). It's as if the two files are completely unrelated, or you're comparing two different channels.

Question: how was white noise generated and played into each of the devices?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Here you go. These are for the white noise comparison.
What can you tell from the plots? Thanks!
View attachment 139631

View attachment 139630

These are comparing X16 capture to e30 capture?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Can you post these charts for the music comparison? Your noise comparison shows an extremely poor match (-12dB RMS). It's as if the two files are completely unrelated, or you're comparing two different channels.

Question: how was white noise generated and played into each of the devices?

White noise generated with Audacity. Play from audacity via laptop usb to DAC.

Here are the plots for actual song.

output when doing comparison:
DeltaWave v1.0.61, 2021-07-07T10:02:24.0787980-07:00
Reference: x16_R_xlr_0db_song_of_the_whale.wav[R] 14802432 samples 96000Hz 24bits, mono, MD5=00
Comparison: d30_pro_right_xlr_minus1_song_of_the_whale.wav[R] 14685184 samples 96000Hz 24bits, mono, MD5=00
Settings:
Gain:True, Remove DC:True
Non-linear Gain EQ:False Non-linear Phase EQ: False
EQ FFT Size:65536, EQ Frequency Cut: 0Hz - 0Hz, EQ Threshold: -160dB
Correct Drift:True, Precision:30, Subsample Align:True
Non-Linear drift Correction:False
Upsample:False, Window:Hann
Spectrum Window:Hann, Spectrum Size:32768
Spectrogram Window:Hann, Spectrogram Size:4096, Spectrogram Steps:2048
Dither:False
Trim Silence:False
Enable Simple Waveform Measurement: False

Discarding Reference: Start=0s, End=0s
Discarding Comparison: Start=0s, End=0s

Initial peak values Reference: 0dB Comparison: 0dB
Initial RMS values Reference: -10.665dB Comparison: -10.774dB

Null Depth=12.649dB
X-Correlation offset: 16837 samples
Drift computation quality, #1: Very Good (4.59μs)


Trimmed 0 samples ( 0.00ms) front, 0 samples ( 0.00ms end)


Final peak values Reference: 0dB Comparison: 0.16dB
Final RMS values Reference: -10.733dB Comparison: -10.737dB

Gain= -0.0368dB (0.9958x) DC=0 Phase offset=175.418949ms (16840.219 samples)
Difference (rms) = -30.99dB [-31.74dBA]
Correlated Null Depth=41.85dB [35.11dBA]
Clock drift: -8.14 ppm


Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=1.1%) at 16 bits
Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0%) at 24 bits
Files match @ 49.9612% when reduced to 5.51 bits


---- Phase difference (full bandwidth): 91.5676467770507°
0-10kHz: 59.00°
0-20kHz: 81.02°
0-24kHz: 84.16°
Timing error (rms jitter): 1.7μs

RMS of the difference of spectra: -103.113146154488dB
DF Metric (step=400ms, overlap=0%):
Median=-23.8dB
Max=0dB Min=-29.8dB

1% > -29.42dB
10% > -27.42dB
25% > -26.0dB
50% > -23.83dB
75% > -21.37dB
90% > -18.52dB
99% > -0.94dB

PK Metric (step=400ms, overlap=50%):
RMS=-62.1dBFS
Median=-65.7
Max=-48.5

99%: -51.91
75%: -62.76
50%: -65.71
25%: -68.25
1%: -114.47

gn=1.00424076161705, dc=0, dr=-8.14454215758338E-06, of=16840.2190889405

DONE!

Signature: dff46161887af1ab42fc02d40afd8924

 

[Pdxwayne]

These are comparing X16 capture to e30 capture?

No, x16 vs d30pro.

 

[Standing in the rain]

Just because you don't like the D30 pro, doesn't mean it's not the better dac.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Just because you don't like the D30 pro, doesn't mean it's not the better dac.

I was thinking it is the better one to use to direct connect to amp and use it preamp feature. Also it is the safer one to use as compare to x16 due to DC issue when turn on and off. That is why I bought it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Genuine question here. OP's description is that the D30pro is "less clear" and "not right" Lets assume all the measurements etc show differences that are accepted as maybe audible, how does he or anyone know that the measured differences are the same as the observed differences?

You could compare to the original signal and get some idea. Or use a 3rd device that measures more closely to one of the other two.

 

[DSJR]

For X16, when it is brand new, e30 sounded better. After a few weeks of usage, x16 sounded similar to e30. I was thinking maybe there is such thing as burn in, but I got heavily criticized in my other thread for saying that....

I know, which is why I'm trying to be careful and looking at 'things' that others here may not consider. I have memories of my Bryston BP25P preamp which sounded quite cold and 'HiFi' when turned on cold, yet after a few hours powered it was 'as sweet as a nut' - I hadn't done a bypass comparison at that point and if it wasn't for herself insisting everything is off at the wall when not in use, with a twenty year warranty it wouldn't have mattered anyway as it was fully stable left powered 24/7. This was when Bryston was more affordable in the UK, the BP26 with bigger external supply practically doubled in price overnight

 

[danadam]

As a control, how well do two recordings from the same DAC match?

 

[Pdxwayne]

As a control, how well do two recordings from the same DAC match?

I adjusted the gain of the loopback device to do white noise test. Will see if I can adjust the gain (manual knob thing) to get back to previous gain point.

 

[Pdxwayne]

As a control, how well do two recordings from the same DAC match?

Good suggestion!

I just compared x16 to x16 second capture and it was worse than compared to d30pro. So, it would appear that my loopback device is not accurate enough.....or it got distorted near the max as it keep flashing red during capture.

The test song itself is pretty loud. I will see adjusting the loopback device input gain down and only take 1.5 minutes of the song would help or not.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I adjusted the gain of the loopback device to do white noise test. Will see if I can adjust the gain (manual knob thing) to get back to previous gain point.

Using white noise make the level -10 dbFS or a bit lower. Noise has at least 10 db of peaks that will cause clipping if you aren't careful. And it may take more adjustment as I don't know the input sensitivity of your ADC.